Road Racing and Training Thread, Week Ending 1/28/18

600m Repeats: Good luck on the build up and breaking 5. I'm sure you can. I'm going to have to read this Livingstone's H.I.T. sounds interesting and I could see how it would not be comparable between people.

pewow: Thanks now that I understand and since you asked for advice. Here is my 2 cents worth. You've mentioned racing the 800 through 10k. The 800 is 66% aerobic and the 10k is around 90% aerobic. These percentages are kind of deceiving. For these races the first and last 200m is almost all anaerobic and in-between is almost all aerobic. I would say you might want to train a little more on the aerobic side of things. More miles, longer repeats and running them slower may benefit you for these races more than the shorter stuff.

Everyone is a little different based on the different percentage of muscle fiber types they have. I'd guess you have more fast twitch muscle fibers than most of the people on this thread. Most of the people here can bang out miles easily which works the for the slow twitch muscle fibers on the aerobic side of things. When they are doing workouts it is mostly to build their intermediate muscle fibers, which are also somewhat aerobic. Almost never do they work their fast twitch muscles.

Guys with a larger percentage of fast twitch muscles fibers have to work on the intermediate and slow twitch muscles differently. From what I've read it is harder for them to get the mileage up. Running shorter tempos and building up their workouts are key while building mileage. The good side of this for guys with a lot of fast twitch muscles is they will win in almost every kick finish once they build their aerobic side up.

No offense or judgment intended, but I think that the beer is probably the major factor here. That, combined with the wind and warmer temps, will put a dent in anyone.

Pappy wrote:

The 800 is 66% aerobic and the 10k is around 90% aerobic. These percentages are kind of deceiving. For these races the first and last 200m is almost all anaerobic and in-between is almost all aerobic.

I hope it's ok to jump in here but this is a common misconception I see made a lot.

The first 5-20 seconds of an 800 is mainly energy supplied by the creatine phosphate system and then the anaerobic glycotic system becomes dominant(30 seconds into the 800m, the use of energy systems is approximately 40 aerobic/60 anaerobic and after 1 minute, it is more like 50/50). After which, the remainder of the race is aerobically dominant. Just like in the 400m, the last 100m is where the aerobic energy system is at it's highest usage. The longer any distance race goes on, the more energy gets used aerobically.

This week I had to reenter in the game so to speak. It was a bit funny cause I had a HM on Saturday but I didn't know how fast I would run.

The race was a 3 person team race, where you had to run together. I knew I was the fastest on the team, but I didn't knew exactly how my teammates were, one of them was kinda panicking that he wasn't ready (we were talking like 90-91 minutes at first). Anyway, more on this later

Monday: Off. Wake up, saw much snow outside, called it off

Tuesday: 7.6k+7.7k easy. Pretty hot so roads got cleared.

Wednesday: 13.7k, 60 min in total, last 45 at 4:10ish/km. I initially wanted 4:15 but I felt good so I just ran it by feel.

Thursday: 9.4k easy

Friday: 10k fartlek, short variations every 3 min, lasting between 30s and 60s, depending how I felt like.

Saturday: 21.1 HM, 1:38:30. We were on pace for the first 3k until we decided to drop the pace. Good thing we did, one of my teammates almost burned out at the 20k mark, we had to drag him for the last km. Averaged 4:40/km, pretty happy, good long run for me. We came 9th team from 89 teams somehow.

Sunday: 9k easy + 7.2k v. easy and drills

Total: 87k. Pretty bland week, just a lot of constant running at different speeds. Gonna do some 400s next workout

Thanks Pappy, my main goal is summer track.

Current plan is to run 40-45 mpw (I've averaged 35 mpw for the last 6 months), dial back the workout intensity for a few months, and try to use the spring road races to help race my way into shape.

Nice work this week all, good stuff.

Another steady week for me. Overall volume is about where I want to stay for most of the next few weeks. Tuesday and Saturday both went really well - I hadn't done much long+faster stuff before this cycle but I've been feeling really good on these types of sessions. Pace on non-quality days is starting get a touch faster too (more runs in the 7:15-7:30 range down from my usual 7:45-8), which is not something I consciously try to work on, but probably a good sign.

11 weeks out from my goal half, with a very low-key 8k a week from today.

M

AM: 5 very easy

PM: 7.7 easy/moderate

T: 14.5 including 3 sets of (6 mins ~HM pace, 1 min easy, 2 mins ~10k pace, 1 min easy, 2 mins ~10k pace), 8 mins easy between sets

W

AM: 5.9 very easy

PM: 4.4 easy

Th

AM: 3.8 easy

PM: 9 easy/moderate

F

AM: 5.5 including 6x10sec hills

PM: 6.9 easy/moderate

Sa: 14.6 consisting of 7 easy, 7 steady (~marathon pace), .6 easy

Su: 7.3 very easy

Total: 84.9

Pappy - Good to see you back running again. Stay healthy!

Smoove - That's a great week. Those rolling dirt roads look awesome. I think jewbacca may be on to something with the timing of your fluid intake. From my admittedly limited knowledge on marathon training, that 20 miler was essentially a depletion run. The way your body reacted is pretty much what I would expect. I don't think it's a big issue. Probably just need to think about figuring out a way to stash a few bottles or something to fuel during those long runs.

AJ - Nice looking week there. What did you think of the fartlek?

WH - Nice week, you seem to have stuff pretty well locked in around 5:35 pace. I wouldn't go out too much quicker than 5:30-35. Then try to cut down if it's a good day and hold on if it's not.

Pewow - Nice Race!

600m - Your gym has a Woodway? That's sweet!

DB - That's a solid week. Those are solid workouts and running at 6900 feet is no joke.

JB - Very nice week, especially the last 3 days. That's a lot of quality to close out a good week.

Decent week for me. Got a fair amount of work in, but didn't get as much in Wednesday and Thursday as I'd been hoping to. Ran my Tuesday workout on an indoor track, and my knee twinged a couple times towards the end of the workout. Didn't think anything of it, then it was still bugging me a bit Wednesday. Thursday was better, but I was still a little nervous and played it safe. I think something just slipped a little out of place or something weird like that, because it's been fine since then.

M - 10 relaxed + 8 strides

T - 8x1k, 4x200 + 5.5 wu/cd for 11 total.

1000 3:14 45 seconds

1000 3:02 60

1000 3:13 60

1000 3:09 75

1000 3:06 90

1000 3:02 90

1000 2:59 1:45

1000 2:53 3:00

200 28.3 45

200 28.7 45

200 28.8 45

200 27.5 Done

W - 8.1 miles easy.

T - 6 easy straight into 1.5 mile tempo at 5:20 pace, 3 min jog, 4x150 w/ 250 jog recovery, easy to 9.5 total.

F - 6.5 easy with strides

S - 8 miles of warm up, cool down, and shake-out miles + 3k race in 8:25.

Race was decent, but not quite what I was hoping for. Felt very smooth the whole time and closed well though, so I think I'm fit. Just need the right race to run a PR. First 2k of this race was pretty relaxed. We came through in 5:44, at which point I moved to the front and started to try to cut things down. Had 3 guys come with me and they went to the front with 600 to go. I sat on them until 350 to go and I went at that point. Goal was a smooth press into a really solid last 100 or so. Raced to the line and came up just short finishing 2nd by .04. Probably should've tried to go a little harder a little earlier, but I still closed in 2:41 for the last 1k and 28.60 for the last 200.

S - 16 miles, worked into it.

Statfanatic- Congrats on the race. Your training is a big inspiration.

AngryJohnny- back in the saddle I see. Nice long run.

Smoove- I'm not sure about the cramping situation but hopefully you get a cool day in Boston and it's a non-issue.

pewow- hammering! Looks like there is more in the tank too with that fast close.

Jewbacca- Glad that you are feeling better. Great race in Houston. I'm looking forward to following your marathon build.

Diet Bacon- I like combination workouts like that one you did on Tuesday.

The Mack- Welcome. 2:41 is moving! I'll look forward to following your build. It looks like you are being smart and patient.

Mzungu- R3 is that you man? Nice volume and nice to meet you in Houston.

Pappy- nice volume for you too

Working Harder- What can I say? Expect great things!

Training-

Male, 36

Goals- ~15:30 at BAA 5k, sub 2:30 marathon this fall

*m- (11) 6 x mile @5:27 avg w/2:30 jog recovery

t- 8.5/4.5

*w- AM- (6) w/ 2 miles in 10:37 PM- 5

*th- hilly/chilly 12 @6:14

f- 8/5

s- 10/5 with 8 x 100m in 16"

*su- AM- 12 x 400 on the track in 1:14-high, 2' rec PM- 4.5

90 miles for the week

Introducing some faster paces, which I will gradually build on and lengthen. I hope to be in 15:30s 5k shape by mid-April and 1:10 half marathon shape in May. March will be when I really start up with 5k training.

Thanks for the training inspiration gentlemen.

Sun21st 14.42mls 2:00:54

Mon 22nd 8mls 1:10;52

Tue- off felt really tired

Wed24th 8mls 1:09:26

Thur25th 8;01mls 1:04:52

Fri 26th 8:02 mls 1:09:45

Sat raced a 5K 2ml warm up 5k 20:38

51 ml week.

Going for 68 mls this week.

54 year old male heading to Boston 2018.

Going to try and keep posting weekly.

Thanks.

Thanks for starting the thread, Pappy. It's gotta feel great just to be able to do what you love for an hour or so every day. The miles will come.

Smoove: My two cents. I also have some experience with cramps late in races, as I've mentioned once or twice, especially at the end of the race I am preparing for right now with a steepish uphill and downhill on kms 35-37. My thoughts are based on logic, rather than any in depth research, so take it for what it's worth.

In my case, I can't really think of a time where I have cramped up on a training run. I run most of the year in a Florida-like climate with heat and humidity that would daunt a lot of North American or European runners. Yet, I never cramp on a training run. Add to this that I am NOT diligent about hydrating, though the hotter the weather, the more attention I will pay to hydration. I NEVER fuel on training runs, and I only drink water, so I am not ingesting any electrolytes. I sometimes do 3 hour long runs under those conditions with no cramping.

On race day, I fuel with gels, I drink whatever sports drink is offered on the tables, and I CRAMP. So, wtf, right? The difference between training and racing, according to my reasoning, is the duration at that high level of effort of my muscles. My heart and lungs have been prepared, but the leg muscles have not been adequately introduced to what they'll be required to do. In other words, it could really be a "specificity" of training issue. We all know that the calves, quads, and hams are working harder (or at least differently) on hills, so in past years I have incorporated hills into my training. However, I had NOT put them into my long runs. This year, I'm really trying to preview race day for my legs by sticking hills at the end of my long runs.

So after all of that, I don't have a conclusion. It's just that my cramping issues do not seem to be related to hydrating or electrolytes but instead to asking tired muscles to do something novel.

Nice work on the 5k Pretzel Man, especially after switching the pace up some just two days before.

Great work, everyone. I'll admit to petty jealousy in my past when I read about people training for Boston. Why can't I be doing that? This time around it's different... 2019 is just around the corner...

Welcome to all the new people! For their benefit, I am male, 49 yo, preparing for a 3/18 marathon.

M: Rest

T: 11km easy

W: 18.5 km with 11 at threshold that included a 10km PR. Hehehe.

T: Rest

F: 18.3 in the hills with rainbows

S: 8 km at recovery HR. The fastest I have ever run at this HR (no, not fast, but comparatively speaking...)

S: 33km with the last 7km up and down a 1000ft hill. Progression on the first 26 and then I worked hard on both the uphill and downhill...going for the effect I mentioned in my post above.

Definitely one of my more epic long runs. You know, a few years ago I was literally afraid of 20 mile LSD runs. The week prior, daily, I'd be brooding over it... I'd be apprehensive about how I'd feel... would it suck?...would I hit the wall?... Now, I think sticking a mountain on the end of an unfueled progression 20-miler is just what the doctor ordered.

You CAN get where you want to go. I am going to Boston.

Total: 88.9 km or about 55 miles

Coach Jeff - You bet you are going to Boston! What an inspiring and uplifting post. Plus, I REALLY like the 33km run with the 1k hill. If you were here (or I were there), I would give you a big hug...as big of a hug that a 5’6”/125 guy could muster :-)

All the best to you....

Man hug much appreciated. But it's actually you inspiring me. This thread has a nice feedback loop going!

It's me R3. 34. Running an 8k in two weeks. 10k in 5 weeks. 15k in 7 weeks and my goal half marathon in 10 weeks.

First week of training camp was good. Went as follows.

M lunch 6 - 7min pace. 8miles bike

T Am 10 7:48. 8miles bike

W lunch 2up 7:30. Tempo 3m (6:06-6:00-5:58) 4mins jog 2m (5:57-6:02) 2mins jog 1m (5:59) 1.4 down 7:19. 10miles total 8miles bike

T lunch 4.3 7:10. Pm 4 7:29 4miles bike

F AM 12.3 7:35 avg. 9miles bike

Sat 4.2 8:03 avg w 6x strides

Sun. AM 2.3 shakeout 7:57 avg

PM 14 7:40 to 6:50. 7:11 avg.

Totals 67.2 running. 37 bike.

Only 20 beers all week.

Elixer wrote:

Pappy wrote:

The 800 is 66% aerobic and the 10k is around 90% aerobic. These percentages are kind of deceiving. For these races the first and last 200m is almost all anaerobic and in-between is almost all aerobic.

I hope it's ok to jump in here but this is a common misconception I see made a lot.

The first 5-20 seconds of an 800 is mainly energy supplied by the creatine phosphate system and then the anaerobic glycotic system becomes dominant(30 seconds into the 800m, the use of energy systems is approximately 40 aerobic/60 anaerobic and after 1 minute, it is more like 50/50). After which, the remainder of the race is aerobically dominant. Just like in the 400m, the last 100m is where the aerobic energy system is at it's highest usage. The longer any distance race goes on, the more energy gets used aerobically.

Thanks, great explanation. I've read this before. Maybe it is just whoever is faster wins in a kick. I made your last sentence bold just to emphasize it. Almost everyone here is racing longer than the 800. I know I'm not brave enough anymore for the 800.

I think I've run 3, maybe 4 800s in my entire life, including relays. My biggest regret about not running until college is that I never developed my 800/1600 speed.

It isn't going to happen now, because anything below the 3000 (and even that) always hurt just too much.

Planned down week for me.

M-6

W-7 w/ 20 min tempo (634,631,629,27sec in .07)

T-6

F-7

S-11

I liked this quote:

"We worked hard during training... I think that the thing that I've learned over the years is that you really don't know what you are. You've kind of created this hypothesis of what you are, or what you think you may be, and then you go test it out. When you finally go up against competition, you're kinda faced with realities, not of maybe what you hoped you were, or what you hoped you could be, but this is actually where we're at."

Any guesses?