Goal of Sub 2:19 Marathon: Advice Appreciated

Hi Ben.

I can share with you the training a couple of guys were doing prior to 2.20 and 2.18 perfornces (from last October) if you are interested. It is past midnight here and I am off to bed but will check LR in the morning.

Oly wrote:

It seems an ambitious objective, you probably need to push your training to the next level and see if you can tolerate it.

I really like the idea of altitude training but it should be close to competition day to be effective.

Lookup Canova threads and training schedules, hard to find someone with more successfull athletes on this board.

Many people complains that is stuff is geared towards elites but you can easily adapt his suggestions and typical workouts to your situation. I don't believe in marathon plans straight from the books, build your own using the best sources.

Good luck.

In an older Canova thread he actually suggested going to altitude for the threshold portion of the training cycle. So in his system this would mean you return to sea level no less than 3 weeks out and possibly up to 8. The idea is that the final phase of your marathon training should be specific so you’ll want to do the final marathon paced workouts at sea level at actual marathon pace rather than adjusted marathon pace. You’re trying to teach your body to use fuel efficiently at MP.

Not a rule. In the recent Moen exploit, he trained in altutude until November 27th (Fukuoka marathon on December 3rd).

Gelindo Bordin had a 23 days taper a sea level before OG. 8 weeks seems overkill, you lose too much of the gains especially if you don't live/train in altitude year round.

You have to get used to running 125 miles a week plus.. If you can't.. just stay home. You won't ever reach your goal.

Hi Ben! It`s not being a bold claim to guarantee that with my system it`s 100% safe you will run sub 2.19 , but it´s of course up to yourself if you will try to reach it "threw trial and error". I can guarantee I have fixed it if you followed my coaching to 100% out from the results and responding to the system that has been so far . Your recent 1:06:55 half indicates 2 x 1: 06:55 + 5 min = 2.18.50 ( can be faster with 1 - 1½ min) with my special "magic".

" If someone were to tell you that if you run this many reps of x distance at y pace with z recovery, then you can run a certain time in a race,that often doesn`t go over well" This you say is not true. At least not in my world of coaching and running . There it mostly go over very well. When combining the runners individual very best paces and effort correct, the runner almost always reach the predicted goal.

So you have lots of contributions from experts with credentials. I am neither. I do have good insight as to potential.

The only unknown is 26.2 . If I were in your shoes BEFORE setting up my training I would run a marathon x seconds per mile slower than my goal. The x needs to be fast enough to test how your body responds to racing for such a long distance but slow enough not to trash you. How you respond will let you make a better plan. Good Luck.

There you go. Bold added to help your reading comprehension.

Oly wrote:

Disciple wrote:

In an older Canova thread he actually suggested going to altitude for the threshold portion of the training cycle. So in his system this would mean you return to sea level no less than 3 weeks out and possibly up to 8. The idea is that the final phase of your marathon training should be specific so you’ll want to do the final marathon paced workouts at sea level at actual marathon pace rather than adjusted marathon pace. You’re trying to teach your body to use fuel efficiently at MP.

Not a rule. In the recent Moen exploit, he trained in altutude until November 27th (Fukuoka marathon on December 3rd).

Gelindo Bordin had a 23 days taper a sea level before OG. 8 weeks seems overkill, you lose too much of the gains especially if you don't live/train in altitude year round.

I think you have a good point there. And remember that Moen had been in Kenya many times before his last long period (over 20 times he told me). I believe it was not mainly that he stayed in Kenya (mixed with Italy) for a long period last time that made him run 2.05, it`s more a matter of correct individual faster paces......perfect controlled pace by the legendary Canova.

Jan, you can stop soliciting. He is not looking for a coach. If you read some of the other threads, you will see that part of his interest here is in the journey. He wants to figure this out for himself for the most part, but is looking for various perspectives to help him sort through his options (although my impression is that he has a fairly good idea as to what he wants to do as his core approach and will not likely vary that a ton).

I do think the "should you run a marathon less than all out the first time" question is an interesting one. It would never occur to me to do that. I am not saying that any runner should try to run their ultimate goal time, because their fitness may not justify that goal time (and in the OP's case, I just don't think he has quite gotten there as a runner yet); but I would say that a runner should evaluate his or her fitness as their training progresses and as they race throughout the year and come up with a goal that reflects what they are capable of achieving with their best effort and then go for that best effort in that first race. I just don't know what you accomplish by running a marathon at a hard, but not true race pace effort. I would rather see them truly understand the challenges that arise from that last 10k right from the beginning

Plus, you only get so many marathons in your prime, why "waste" one with a sub-optimal effort?

He won't be in his prime if he tries a marathon in the fall at a moderate effort. He's still young and new to hard training and will be running faster in 2024 than 2020 (if he decides to keep it up).

Depending on how well you recover and your background, a marathon at a solid effort is a great training stimulus. You can take it pretty easy several days before and after and fuel like you're racing it.

Because you're not going to the well or burning through those carbs, recovery is actually pretty quick. I ran a steady marathon five weeks before a PR race and had plans to do it again for my next one but was sick the day of the race.

I was self-coached for my post-collegiate running but hired one for my last serious marathon. He had me slated down to do a mile warm-up and a marathon progression run five weeks before my target marathon and had a lot of success doing it with his other athletes.

Smoove wrote:

I just don't know what you accomplish by running a marathon at a hard, but not true race pace effort. I would rather see them truly understand the challenges that arise from that last 10k right from the beginning

Plus, you only get so many marathons in your prime, why "waste" one with a sub-optimal effort?

From personal experience I believe it's better to understand how your body reacts individually to the beast that is the last 10k. There is a big mental hurdle that can be passed by telling yourself "I've already done this before" when you're heading to the hurt zone. It's not something you can really simulate during training so getting a small glimpse helps prep you for the real goal day.

Hi Smoove! Well.... he is not the only runner that wants to break some PR:s you know.

Smoove wrote:

Jan, you can stop soliciting. He is not looking for a coach. If you read some of the other threads, you will see that part of his interest here is in the journey. He wants to figure this out for himself for the most part, but is looking for various perspectives to help him sort through his options (although my impression is that he has a fairly good idea as to what he wants to do as his core approach and will not likely vary that a ton).

Bingo

Ben, best of luck in your OTQ buildup and attempts. I'm just starting my own OTQ buildup, though for me it's a longer shot.

I'm basing my own training on a mix of the principles outlined by Daniels, Pfitz, Coe, Canova, and Hansons. Lots of information out there, and I think you know your body well enough to understand what is going to work for you.

I also like to look at what other runners are doing and how they apply the training principles. This is as valuable as the books, IMHO. A runner you might want to check out (similar slow-twitch guy to you) is Paul Petersen. He hit the OTQ 3 times, ranging from when it was 2:22 down to when they briefly had it at 2:18. You two have similar track PRs, so you might like to see what he did:

http://paul.fastrunningblog.com/

I just inform you that even 16 x 400m at 66 sec is too fast. The correct pace is more like around 70 sec !

@Hope this helps - Thanks for the link, Rod Dehaven's training log was very interesting and certainly unorthodox from what many would advocate here. From the ~year of training that's on there, he's not really consistent with banging out those 100+ mile weeks, although he did still hit weeks of 115 and 130 miles 2 and 3 weeks out from running 2:12 at Boston. He had a great long run most weeks and lots of mileage around 6:00-6:15 pace. Looking at it some more, it looks like he was consistently above 100 mpw later that year after Boston - still tons of quality miles in there though. Interesting stuff.

@joalturn - I don't see the marathon training without a marathon at the end as a waste at all. I see it as a nice opportunity to physically and psychologically adapt to a new workload without the pressures of a race. Some people may have trouble staying motivated without a goal race in close proximity, but that is not me. I've found that it helps me to race less and have a long term goal race. If anything, I've fallen on the spectrum of training too hard rather than not staying motivated when a race is that far away. I love training.

@runnah - I think the problem with Coach JS in this situation is that I'm just asking for general advice, and he is coming here asking for money with nothing else to offer. Not that I'm expecting free coaching from someone, but if you don't want to try to help at all at no cost, then don't, and the world will keep spinning.

@Not a marathon runner & back in the MF day - That's kind of how I've been feeling about this. While I still want to hit some nice peak mileage, I'm just not sure if I'm the kind of guy that can handle 115+ mpw week in and week out, nor do I know if that's how I best respond to training. While I've tried that kind of mileage for brief periods of time, I'm not sure if I've been able to sustain it long enough to really see the benefits. I realize that the constant high mileage is how many people make it, but there are also some that have different needs. If the constant high mileage is what I need, then I'm all for it, but I'm just not sure yet.

@Banana Bread - I think the problem here is your definition of sprint. Sprinting is maximum speed/effort for a short bout. If I were to really try and sprint 250m uphill with full recovery, I'd be spent before 4 reps.

@forcerunner - I'm sure you are capable of a faster half marathon than that though. I just happened to be peaking for my half, and as I keep saying, every star out there aligned for me that morning. The long run is certainly the main thing thing that I'll be trying to adapt to. I was pretty consistent last fall with 18 milers, but I want to be more consistent with 20+ milers or at least running for 2+ hours consistently on a weekly basis.

@smoove - I agree that I am not there as a runner right now, but I do believe that I am getting close. That's why I want to put together another full year of training before I truly test myself in a marathon, and hopefully my fitness will be there at that point.

Also, thank you to everyone that has provided me with links to other logs about OTQ attempts and successes. I will be looking through those as I make time for them.

Here's another question that I have regarding altitude training. If I were to go through with it, I'm not looking to race within a few weeks of coming down from altitude. The situation would likely be training at altitude for most of June and July and then racing much later in the fall or winter. In that scenario, is there any long term physiological benefit to training at altitude vs just training at home for those months?

Ben Barrows wrote:

Here's another question that I have regarding altitude training. If I were to go through with it, I'm not looking to race within a few weeks of coming down from altitude. The situation would likely be training at altitude for most of June and July and then racing much later in the fall or winter. In that scenario, is there any long term physiological benefit to training at altitude vs just training at home for those months?

Honestly, there's probably some huge placebo effect going on for altitude training. If you think altitude training will work for you, it probably will despite when you're doing it.

This weekend I took an ice bath after a long hard run. I felt great afterwards, like I could even go do a double. A couple hours later I read a research article about how ice baths aren't proven to work at all. But guess what, my legs still felt good and they felt good the next day too.

Placebos are fantastic

Ben , I`m not asking you for money. I just give you a good advice. To run a specific goal time needs specifik individual paces in training. Another way of handling it is just a big "guess" that can succeed, but also a big risk of failure. "Nothing else to offer " , you say. Well, ... I think a 100% guarantee that the runner reach the goal is a very big offer, isn`t it ?

Ben Barrows wrote:

Here's another question that I have regarding altitude training. If I were to go through with it, I'm not looking to race within a few weeks of coming down from altitude. The situation would likely be training at altitude for most of June and July and then racing much later in the fall or winter. In that scenario, is there any long term physiological benefit to training at altitude vs just training at home for those months?

Depends on if you're a responder to altitude or not. Some people respond positively and have increased blood values after coming down. Some people don't. I think the big thing that's looked over with altitude training during the base phase or spring/summer is the general correlation of places at higher altitude with other training benefits. Soft surface, sun, usually other people to run with. Plus the people who are committed enough to go through with making the foray to higher elevation are usually the type of people to take the other aspects of running seriously.

It depends where you find is affordable to live as well. Somewhere at 5k feet might be cheaper than going to flagstaff at 7k feet. But you could also go to Santa Fe, NM and get equal elevation, but then you sacrifice the running culture that some of those other cities might have. If you have the means to get out for a few months and go all in I'd take advantage.