Road Racing and Training Thread, Week Ending 12/31/17

She joined the Strava group and hasn't posted or been on Strava since. Hopefully she is doing good.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the back and forth of training philosophies, BUT,

I think OutsideRunner presents an interesting case study. He follows the "do whatever" running program, and it will probably work. Olympic champions have been developed by Igloi on short/fast as well as Lydiard (long/slow). Clearly there's more than one way to skin a cat(fish).

My question for the group is based on Periodization. Frankly, I don't get it.

If you're training for any event longer than a mile you need a base for endurance, but also to withstand workouts. I feel like once the base is established, there's no real reason to "re-base" other than the fact that you can't do repeat 200s each week and need down periods from time to time.

No matter the event, a certain amount of endurance and speed must be developed.

What is your definition of "base"?

Being able to run a certain distance without stopping...

For instance, freshman cross country runners really need not be doing track repeats until they can comfortably run 5 miles. This is just a random number.

Two years ago I took 4 months completely off to get over a long battle with PF. For the first month back, I didn't attempt to run any faster than 730 pace, because the first run was a challenge to finish 1.5 miles without stopping. My "base" came back relatively quickly. Even then, I didn't attempt much other than some uptempo running until I could comfortably run 8 miles/day.

Here is my take on periodization.

I do it for a few reasons, most of it practical:

- First, my body cannot handle the intensity of vo2max work consistently each month, every month. It would just beat the hell out of me.

- Second, like lots of runners, I have specific races that I tend to want to be ready for. That means that I want to try to do some workouts that bring me to a peak, which means backing away from the intensity associated with certain kinds of workouts for some period of time (2 to 4 weeks) before my peak race to allow my body to recover and be ready to race.

- Third, races of different distances require emphasis on different physiological systems, which requires and emphasis on different types of workouts.

- Fourth, after training hard for some period of time, my body and mind need some down time for recovery. Sometimes (after a marathon or an injury) that may mean an extended period without running. Other times, it may mean just easy distance with no real workouts. That easy running may be a recovery period, or it may roll into a base period.

So as a result of all of that, I might structure my training to peak 2 or maybe 3 times per year, and I may be peaking for events of very different distances, and I would want some recovery time in between. All of that means that after each break and between each peak, I need to structure my training in such a way that I progress back to the most intense type of workouts gradually. In many ways, periodization can be viewed that simply.

Beyond the practical, I think there is a fair amount of science that suggests that the vast bulk of certain desired adaptations can be achieved within certain time frames (usually 4 to 6 weeks) and can be maintained for a fair amount of time even with only nominal maintenance thereafter (the duration depends on the amount and type of maintenance, but 2 to 4 weeks with only a bit of maintenance is kind of my rule of thumb). So if I am thinking about running my best possible 5k, I may structure a training block such that I don't do any vo2max work other than a race modeling workout during the last 3 weeks or so before the race (to allow my body to feel fresh for that 5k), and such that I get a good 6 weeks of that work in during the period immediately preceding that 2-3 week period (to get that lion's share of vo2max improvement that is so important for the 5k). I then split the remaining time available after the end of my prior training cycle and before that 6 week block between pure base work (which might include progression runs, some tempo efforts, some hills, some moderate pace runs, etc.) and some faster running economy/speed work. So really, for me, it is about wanting to be fresh and ready for that goal race and then working back from there.

To constantly grind vo2max workouts all year around would wear me down, and I don't think my body would withstand the abuse. On a less scientific note, I kind of view the work and recovery cycle metaphorically as how some types of rock develops over time - one layer goes down and it hardens and then other layers get laid down on top of the harder layer and those layers build up higher and higher over time.

Compare that to a Magness non-linear training approach like Jeremy prefers, where you might do a bit of everything at all times, but just shift the emphasis in order to achieve that peak and provide for that recovery.

At some point, the lines between the two approaches may become blurred. If I only focused on the 5k and not the marathon, I would rarely go too long without doing some vo2max work - maybe a few weeks here and a few weeks there because I would likely race more and get at least some maintenance work in as a result. I would also probably get more rep work in as part of my threshold work (with some sets of 200s before and after) than I do when marathon training. Not quite the same as a true non-linear approach, but at some point, things do come a bit closer to merging, perhaps close enough that the distinctions are more theoretical than practical.

In my mind a return to base would mean more unstructured work but not a complete lack of work. So easy/moderate running, short hills/strides, some tempo/aerobic work, much more than just being able to run a set distance.

Smoove,

I think natural "periodization" is present in my training, although I've never tracked things as closely as I should.

Where I live, the hot summer months and brutally cold winter months keep me from going too hard year round. Otherwise, I'd break down from hammering too often.

We'll see how next week's race goes...I've been working out at a high level(for me) for a long stretch now...

Bdubs wrote:

I feel like once the base is established, there's no real reason to "re-base" other than the fact that you can't do repeat 200s each week and need down periods from time to time.

The biggest reason to "re-base", in my opinion, is to build it bigger. For example my college mileage progression went from an average of around 50 mpw my freshman year up to a peak of 85 mpw my senior year. You can't do that if you don't take a period to "re-base". If you try to both increase intensity and mileage to levels you've never been at before you're just asking for injury.

Bdubs wrote:

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the back and forth of training philosophies, BUT,

I think OutsideRunner presents an interesting case study. He follows the "do whatever" running program, and it will probably work. Olympic champions have been developed by Igloi on short/fast as well as Lydiard (long/slow). Clearly there's more than one way to skin a cat(fish).

My question for the group is based on Periodization. Frankly, I don't get it.

If you're training for any event longer than a mile you need a base for endurance, but also to withstand workouts. I feel like once the base is established, there's no real reason to "re-base" other than the fact that you can't do repeat 200s each week and need down periods from time to time.

No matter the event, a certain amount of endurance and speed must be developed.

This is an important topic so I’m glad it’s being discussed. Most runners either design their base period the wrong way or worse yet, skip it entirely.

Smoove and others here are right about one thing. The purpose is to give yourself a mental and physical break. It’s also a time to build strength and lay down the foundation for the rest of your season. Lydiard used to say that your entire season depended on those 12 or more weeks. And let’s get something straight...Lydiard’s system should never be categorized as “long/slow”

But...

You can’t think that just because you ran a 1:11 half at age 40-something (sorry Smoove, I couldn’t resist) you don’t need to “return to base.” Doesn’t matter how many miles you’ve run in your lifetime.

Your base gets eroded during bouts of high intensity work. You must return to base and do so for a good portion of the year. That’s where Smoove and others might go off the rails. Because they have the itch to race so often, they will not spend more than MAYBE 3 months in pure base. And if they do, they will be plagued by doubts concerning how much fitness they are losing and how their V02 max is being detrained.

Sure, if you did nothing but go out for 40 minute jogs with your 8-year old daughter and you did that for several months, you would start to lose fitness.

But in a well-designed base period, you are constantly reving up the engine so to speak. You are touching on a variety of paces and most importantly are flushing out the system. Too much work at sub-threshold paces will burn you out. That’s why base is your home.

Great discussion here guys—I am really enjoying it.

Yes, what happened to my friend Runn3rGirl?...and my friends Darko, pale ale, and a few others? I miss them. Wish they would post again.

Did my “do whatever” thing today (I love how you say it, Bdubs), and was pleasantly surprised, for the second day in a row...actually, for the whole week. It has been bitter cold, and I have been taking what my body is giving me, and it is giving me more than I had expected. After last night’s cold, dark blast in the wind (6.5 @ 6:29 overall), I figured this morning’s run would be tough. It was colder yet (a “feels like” of 1 degree F), and at least as strong of a wind as last night, and yet when I got to the seventh mile, I felt good enough to say to myself: “Get another double digit” (my fourth in five runs this week). Ended up going 10.5 @ 6:46 overall, finishing in very stiff breeze, but feeling good. Very pleased with this stretch of training, and that I am getting through this cold weather.

All the best...

I got 5 easy in. Had some fever last night. Woke up and ate a nice healthy large breakfast. Forced myself to work. Ate 2 lbs of fresh fruit and got a B12 injection in the ole butt cheek. And started feeling really good! Was nice here 47 and sunny so got 5 in (almost went 8 but controlled myself) and expect to be 100% tomorrow. Still gonna make sure tho before I register for the 5k in Houston. And sort of dreading running another 5k.

Also there will always be people posting off and on. There are a few of us stalwarts to the thread!

Hope everyone is having a Nice Friday.

too hot - I think you have things backwards. An athlete doesn't say I'm going to do this race schedule because whatever other training program is the best training program and these races fit with the training program.

You start out with deciding what races/goals are important to you and then pick the training program that supports those goals. Many people on this thread will do a marathon or half marathon , but also participate in a local race series where they need to run for most of the year.

I also disagree that peaking has to erode the aerobic base. I've seen people have things click where they peak and could run lights out 400-10k. Although it is certainly easier said than done, a nonlinear approach should help.

Lastly, you are more than welcome to post your own training whenever you feel like it.

Bdubs wrote:

Being able to run a certain distance without stopping...

For instance, freshman cross country runners really need not be doing track repeats until they can comfortably run 5 miles. This is just a random number.

What annoys me with HS coaches and kids isn't the repeats. It is that they will run to many repeats to fast and to hard for almost all of their team, way to early in the season. I pay attention to HS cross country a good bit and have always found it disappointing that about one third of the kids will run their fastest race in the first month of the season.

That example ties in well for discussing a Lydiard type periodization. What happens to the HS kids that run their best times early? It could be two things. First, I doubt any of the kids ran enough in the summer and did not build a base. Why? Because there is a simple give and take relationship that goes on with the aerobic and anaerobic systems in the body. The second reason would be that the kids that do not improve are simply over training and are not getting enough recovery so they do not improve.

Lydiards system is best describe as imagining a pyramid.

Base With a Lydiard type system an athlete spends a good deal of time running a base phase. The main principle is to do it all aerobically. Building a base does not mean to just do long slow distance with a Lydiard system. Lydiard had his guys running hills at aerobic paces constantly during a base phase. I believe it was him that was quoted as saying "Hills are speed work in disguise". The base phase's sole purpose was to build up an athletes heart and lungs. i.e. the oxygen delivery system. Miles, miles, and more miles at a pace you can handle. It is better to run longer at a slower pace than to run faster and not get enough time in. 10-?weeks

Hills The next phase for a Lydiard system would be hill training. The purpose is to mostly develop a stronger stride, more power on toe off. 2-4 weeks

Anaerobic Then comes the the Tempo runs and Intervals in the anaerobic conditioning phase. I do not believe here that the Tempos have the exact same meaning as what Jack Daniels means. The tempos for a Lydiard system are more race pace. I could be wrong. VO2max work maybe a more accurate term. The purpose is to develop a resistance to oxygen debt. Here is where the anaerobic conditioning can start taking away from the aerobic conditioning. An athlete will still do long runs but at this point in the phases the long run is to just try to maintain aerobic conditioning not to improve aerobically. I believe it is in this phase that Lydiard said that once you drive the blood pH down your aerobic conditioning is set and you will not be able to make improvements on it until the next year or cycle. 2-4 weeks

Sharpening The next phase is sharpening. This is mostly to develop more speed. Race specific work, including shorter than race time trials.2-3 weeks

Taper The last phase is the tapering phase. 1-2 weeks. This s where an athlete gets recovered and does final prep work for the big race.

Peak Then is the peak which in phase training will only be good for 1-3 weeks. If all the phases were nailed correctly an athlete should run a PR.

So, with all this being said, back to the HS kids that don't improve. It is either their aerobic conditioning was not developed well enough. "Cross Country seasons are made in the summer" Or, they jumped to far into the anaerobic conditioning phase way to early in the season.

Most HS kids and coaches would be better off doing a Daniels or a Tinman approach to development versus trying to do a Lydiard type system they do not fully understand. Daniels and Tinman's systems are much more forgiving if they don't know the fitness level the kids are at.

Probably left a ton out just because there is not enough room to condense books and seminars into a LR post.