a lot of talk about non-linear periodization training plans and the Aussies, but rarely has Lydiard's plan been discussed.
And even when lydiard non-race week/race week plan is discussed, I haven't seen anyone claim to have used it.
Thoughts?
a lot of talk about non-linear periodization training plans and the Aussies, but rarely has Lydiard's plan been discussed.
And even when lydiard non-race week/race week plan is discussed, I haven't seen anyone claim to have used it.
Thoughts?
alalalalamaba wrote:
a lot of talk about non-linear periodization training plans and the Aussies, but rarely has Lydiard's plan been discussed.
And even when lydiard non-race week/race week plan is discussed, I haven't seen anyone claim to have used it.
Thoughts?
I don't think the race week/non race week plan is different enough from what most people do to generate much discussion.
You think that
3x 90' runs (sunday 90'+
2x 5k time trials (hard tempos)
and intervals the day after sunday long run (90'+)
each week is similar to how people currently train????
+1 to knowing nobody who follows a schedule like that
Alalalalalalabama wrote:
You think that
3x 90' runs (sunday 90'+
2x 5k time trials (hard tempos)
and intervals the day after sunday long run (90'+)
each week is similar to how people currently train????
Well, you've got a day of 800-1500 reps, that's pretty common now and it's not carver in stone that you can't do some other distance for the reps. The time trials are hard runs, like an interval sessions, but not all out and you have 3-4 days of aerobic running. Most current training profiles I've seen have a similar mix of distance runs, intervals, and tempo runs. So yeah, it looks similar.
Cross country (non-race week)
Monday: repetitions 3 × 1,500 meters or 6 × 800 meters
Tuesday: aerobic running 60-90 minutes
Wednesday: time trial 3,000 or 5,000 meters
Thursday: aerobic running 60-90 minutes
Friday: fast relaxed striding 10 × 100 meters
Saturday: time trial 3,000 or 5,000 meters
Sunday: aerobic running 60-90 minutes
Cross country (race week)
Monday: wind-sprints 6-10 × 100 meters
Tuesday: easy fartlek 30-60 minutes
Wednesday: time trial 1,500 to 2,000 meters
Thursday: fast relaxed striding 6 × 100 meters
Friday: jog 30 minutes
Saturday: race
Sunday: aerobic running 90 minutes or more
Road (non-race week)
Monday: repetitions 3 × 1,600 meters or 6 × 800 meters
Tuesday: aerobic running 90 minutes
Wednesday: time trial 3 miles
Thursday: aerobic running 90 minutes
Friday: fast relaxed striding 6-10 × 100 meters
Saturday: time trial 3 miles
Sunday: aerobic running 90 minutes or more
Road (race week)
Monday: wind-sprints 10-16 × 100 meters
Tuesday: easy fartlek 30-60 minutes
Wednesday: time trial 1 mile
Thursday: fast relaxed striding 4-6 ×100 meters
Friday: jog 30 minutes
Saturday: race
Sunday: aerobic running 90 minutes or more
Hey HRE, are those striding days on Fridays supposed to be the only thing done? Or should a recovery run be included before striding out?
When you put it like that, it sounds typical.
I'm curious about the short time trials. Modern training has pretty much ditched 3 mi tempos for longer (and sometimes fewer) weekly workouts.
Plus, 3 x 90'+ runs sound good, but I don't know many runners/plans that calls for that many 90'+ runs.
Not HRE, but Friday is roughly 2-3 mi up and down then strides (6-10)x 100m w/ 300 jog
This would be +/- 6-8 miles. Plus the 30-40' morning jog (optional but advised) 4-5 miles for +/- 10-13 miles on the day.
Alalalalalalabama wrote:
Not HRE, but Friday is roughly 2-3 mi up and down then strides (6-10)x 100m w/ 300 jog
This would be +/- 6-8 miles. Plus the 30-40' morning jog (optional but advised) 4-5 miles for +/- 10-13 miles on the day.
Thanks for the reply. Does that also mean that all the aerobic runs do not include warm up and cool down in their duration?
So if I was to run aerobically for 60 mins, I would first warmup 2-3 miles before running for 60, and follow that with a 2-3 mi cool down. Does that make sense? I guess the warmup and cool down mileage isn't considered/included in the workout.
As the guy with all the letters said, any sessions on that schedule, including the strides, are done with some aerobic running before and after. Arthur never seemed to get the hang of writing that down or specifying how much but the distance work shouldn't be long or fast enough to tire you for the tempo or intervals you're going to do. I'd suggest getting the entire session to last for an hour or so. For the 60 to 90 minute runs you'd just start out comfortably and probably work into something of a faster pace. But he'd not want you doing the runs too hard. If you want something more specific, I'd suggest checking your pulse a few minutes after you feel warmed up and are running at the pace you expect to do for the whole run. Then check the pulse at the end of the run. It should be about the same as on the initial check or at the very most 10% higher. As long as you aren't exceeding that figure you're probably not running too fast. He'd tell you to err on the side of going too easy if you are going to err. Or you can use the guideline Snell gave me and decide that as long as you aren't needing to shorten, slow, or eliminate, your next day's run consistently, you're fine.
Remember that this schedule is a template. Not many people do three 90 minute or longer runs in a week except maybe the Japanese. Maybe more should do them. Maybe not. But if you find three runs like that too much, drop one or two to maybe 75-80 minutes. You can and should play around with this to see what you do best with. When I was doing a version of this in my early fifties I was doing long repeats on a gradual hill in place of the sessions of 800s or 1500s. Normal intervals do not work well for me. My longest run was longer than 90 minutes then as well. And while there is no mention of doubling, you could do that. I'm not sure why he doesn't mention that but I'd guess it's because he had aimed his writing more toward "serious" recreational runners at that stage of his career.
Alalalalalalabama wrote:
When you put it like that, it sounds typical.
I'm curious about the short time trials. Modern training has pretty much ditched 3 mi tempos for longer (and sometimes fewer) weekly workouts.
Plus, 3 x 90'+ runs sound good, but I don't know many runners/plans that calls for that many 90'+ runs.
I know that when Arthur was working with Richard Tayler before the '74 Commonwealth Games 10,000 he used time trials at 5,000 meters, maybe not exclusively, but they were part of the plan. When he wrote this plan it was a time when the 10,000, not the 5,000, was the most commonly raced road distance and men who race cross country are almost always racing at 8 or 10 km. I think he used the length of time trial that he'd done most commonly for those distances. I've seen schedules where there were time trials of a mile and a half and 3 km. If you're focused on 5k races now you might replace the 3 mile ones with something like that. In a somewhat related note, in Tom Osler's "conditioning of distance runners," which was heavily inspired by Lydiard, Tom recommends a four mile time trial but only one a week and only in weeks when you aren't racing.
Yes, I agree with the template comment. My outlook is that each day, what Lydiard prescribed is the goal ie 90' aerobic. But if too tired try to get close to 90' (75-80') or go 90' but maybe easier than aerobic pace.
I also imagine that some runners would want to boost the sunday 90' to ~120' if they aspire to run >10km at some time.
I also agree w/ your 3km time trial comment, I think that the plan could be "wed 5k TT w/ occasional 3k TT" similarly I could see "sat 5k TT w/ occasional 10k TT". Especially if a more important 5km race is coming up, or a 10k-half marathon is coming up.
Similar to Deek/Mona's training this plan is pretty high mileage with 3 short fast workouts. Contrasting many modern schedules that have longer and fewer workouts (e.g. 120' long run, 5-6 mile tempo, 1-2 mile repeats).
The arrangement of the monday session is interesting. I'm tempted to switch it to:
Sun: 90'+
Mon: 100m strides
Tue: 5kTT
Wed 90'
Thur: 3xmile or 6x 800m
Fri: 90'
Sat: 5k TT
But, I wonder if there is a specific reason for the original arrangement. Keep friday chill? have intervals >10 days from race? etc.
Alalalalalalabama wrote:
You think that
3x 90' runs (sunday 90'+
2x 5k time trials (hard tempos)
and intervals the day after sunday long run (90'+)
each week is similar to how people currently train????
It's probably best to use Lydiard or anyone else's advice as a guideline. Everyone is different and has different life circumstances. That is why Lydiard and other great coaches do vary their plans depending on who they are coaching.
Just my 2 dollars.
Yes, Doubtful Pre
But for the sake of conversation.
taking the aforementioned lydiard non-race week/race week template as a guideline is very different than taking many modern schedules as guidelines.
The thing to know about the 90 minute runs is that Lydiard believed that your aerobic base determines how much and how fast you can run in your interval sessions, that as you got further from that base the less hard running you could handle and the slower the hard runs would become. The solution in his traditional approach was to go back to base training at that stage and essentially reload for another round of intervals and races in the future.
But there is no base phase in the RW/nRW plan so you need to keep working on aerobic runs through out. But you don't want them to be so demanding that you're compromising the reps, tempos, or races. He seemed to consider 90 minutes the minimum length for a "long run" so I think the idea is to have lots of "short" long runs each week to maintain aerobic fitness but not waste you too much. The plan does say "or longer" for one of the runs so if you can manage that without compromising the faster stuff you'd do it. And if 90 minutes three times is too hard you'd shorten a run or two. But you also should consider that if you're finding those runs too tiring the problem may be that you're running too hard when you do them.
Rearranging the one time trial and the mile sessions as you propose probably would be just fine in the non-race week. But if you believe in the "Two Day Rule," that you feel the effects of a hard run most two days after you do it, a Saturday race has you racing when you're most affected by the intervals so in a race week you'd probably want to have both the trials and reps done by Wednesday. You're also going to need some flexibility with the whole plan because Saturday and Sunday are common racing days so you need to accommodate for that unless you decide you're only going to race on Saturdays...or on Sundays. I think the "chill" Fridays are mostly there to freshen you for the Saturday race.
HRE, thank you for the conversation.
I totally agree with your first two paragraphs. the 3 90(+) min runs can provide/maintain "an aerobic base", and if they compromise the reps/TT then they were probably ran too hard.
The last paragraph is a little confusing. my suggestion was to re-arrange the non-race week, I would still run the race week as planned so the chill friday is still 8-9 days before race.
You mentioning the two day rule lends itself to the non-race week after a race. sat/sun race, sun/mon and mon/tue easy runs (30-90'+ depending on race and recovery) then pick back up with the non-race week Tue/Wed.
I don't mind the way Lydiard planned the non-race week. But, I feel that many coaches would prefer the re-arrangement.
I also think that club level runners could perform pretty well 5k-marathon with this schedule.
obviously, if a marathon comes up the 90+ would be lengthened. probably de-emphasize monday's reps (more maintenance).
and cycle 5k/10k tempos in on saturdays.
Yes, I know there are marathon plans but I like the consistency and ability to hardly adjust training to potentially race well across distances
I don't see any reason not to arrange the non race week as you suggest.
Cool.
HRE endorsed 2018 Lydiard non-race week training for 5k to marathon.
Monday - 6-10x 100m
Tuesday - 3 mi Hard (if targeting long race cycle 6 mi hard in occasionally)
Wednesday - 90' Aerobic
Thursday - 6x 1/2 mi or 3 x 1 mi
Friday - 90' Aerobic
Saturday - 3 mi Hard (if targeting short race cycle 1.5-2 mi hard in occasionally)
Sunday - 90'+ (~120')
Keep race week the same and PR
End dis thread now