#1 Problem in US Varsity HS XC: Setting Goals Too High

That would solve a lot of problems. Many don’t understand the “upward spiral” of progression and feel that it has to be a constant march upwards in performance.

Also, circling back. I really do not think this is the #1 problem.

Not sure I can peg a #1 but it seems like poor quality coaching would be up there. I have seen HS XC coaches training all their runners the exact same (often based off what the fastest kids can do). I have seen HS XC coaches who basically train kids like little adults (they are not). Few coaches (and this is true for way too many coaches across all sports) have little understanding of how to coach or the individual differences or developmental aspects of age groups. They know what to coach (run X miles, run 5x1000m in MM:SS) etc.

Luv2Run wrote:

Also, circling back. I really do not think this is the #1 problem.

Not sure I can peg a #1 but it seems like poor quality coaching would be up there. I have seen HS XC coaches training all their runners the exact same (often based off what the fastest kids can do). I have seen HS XC coaches who basically train kids like little adults (they are not). Few coaches (and this is true for way too many coaches across all sports) have little understanding of how to coach or the individual differences or developmental aspects of age groups. They know what to coach (run X miles, run 5x1000m in MM:SS) etc.

A poorly coached kid can still be motivated and enjoy the sport if he isn’t pushed to the point of misery. However, even the most methodically sound coach can’t succeed if his athletes don’t set goals properly.

I agree with trying to individualize to a point and certainly doing a progressive approach to training based on running experience, talent, injuries etc.. but to truly find out what works with a high school kid is tough.. so muck of that knowledge comes from experience.. Hs kids have very little of that, it is hard to say a certain kid will respond differently to a training stimulus when they are so young and you really don't have time to see how they respond.. Not saying impossible but a lot more difficult, bodies change, mature, motivation changes, not always able to tell if a kid is actually changing due to training or other physical things happening to them.

Sometimes I think we all (myself included) overthink/coach all of this. Most kids get better by following a simple progressive plan and running regularly for most of the year.

I'm in the middle of my first year coaching as an assistant at a high school, and the head coach (who I have become increasingly unimpressed with) set specific time-based goals for every kid at the start of the season and then proceeded to use that goal pace as the foundation for most workouts. We have a sophomore who ran just under 17 for 5k XC as a freshman, and his "goal" was set at 16:00, so most of his workouts have been at assigned at 5:10 pace. Nevermind that he wasn't in sub-17 shape to start the season, he has been trying to work out at 16:00 pace simply by running too hard. He's constantly hammering away at paces much faster than his current fitness (and my suggestions to slow his times down have been rejected by the head coach).

Things haven't gone well as he hasn't broken 17:20 this season. It's frustrating to watch him get discouraged because the unreasonable "goal pace" training isn't allowing him to train effectively to the point where he's actually regressing.

Yes. Unrealistic goals are harmful enough even when athletes are trained based off their current fitness, let alone when the goal pace dictates every workout.

Luv2Run wrote:

Also, circling back. I really do not think this is the #1 problem.

Not sure I can peg a #1 but it seems like poor quality coaching would be up there. I have seen HS XC coaches training all their runners the exact same (often based off what the fastest kids can do). I have seen HS XC coaches who basically train kids like little adults (they are not). Few coaches (and this is true for way too many coaches across all sports) have little understanding of how to coach or the individual differences or developmental aspects of age groups. They know what to coach (run X miles, run 5x1000m in MM:SS) etc.

This is true. Training has to be individualized. Even to the point of having an athlete that can cover the same speed and performance as another but can not handle the volume mostly due to a lack of base training.

Most of our workouts will have girls running in groups according to their finish times in races at the same paces but fewer or more reps. They have accepted why that is and the athletes that have more repetitions are generally jealous of those with less. But, in the back of their minds know they are getting more out of the workout. They also understand that more reps would be a knockout punch to their teammates.

It’s problematic if you incentivize the fast girls to perform poorly by punishing good performance with extra reps. Assign them a faster workout instead of a longer one, or just assign the workout based on time instead of distance (6:00 at RPE 6.5 instead of “mile repeats”).

Can you clarify your statement on Coburn? I hope you aren't calling her dirty.....

mcvred wrote:

Can you clarify your statement on Coburn? I hope you aren't calling her dirty.....

Honestly I threw that in there to check if anyone was actually reading my entire post. You and only a couple others got it. Nice job!

I don’t know if she’s doping or not but I do think there is some reason for suspicion. However I’m a firm believer in innocent until proven guilty. So she’s innocent in my mind given the current evidence.

Stoppit Smith wrote:

mcvred wrote:

Can you clarify your statement on Coburn? I hope you aren't calling her dirty.....

Honestly I threw that in there to check if anyone was actually reading my entire post. You and only a couple others got it. Nice job!

I don’t know if she’s doping or not but I do think there is some reason for suspicion. However I’m a firm believer in innocent until proven guilty. So she’s innocent in my mind given the current evidence.

If you're trying to be taken seriously, don't throw baseless accusations of doping out there.

This thread needs to end.

STop that right now wrote:

Stoppit Smith wrote:

Honestly I threw that in there to check if anyone was actually reading my entire post. You and only a couple others got it. Nice job!

I don’t know if she’s doping or not but I do think there is some reason for suspicion. However I’m a firm believer in innocent until proven guilty. So she’s innocent in my mind given the current evidence.

If you're trying to be taken seriously, don't throw baseless accusations of doping out there.

This thread needs to end.

Hey, I was out of line. Thanks for calling me on it! ?

It has nothing to do with their speed. It has to do with their capability to take on a higher volume for the workout. If I assign them faster paces it would be over the top for their race speed and would undermine the purpose of the workout. I thought that was clear with what I said, but maybe not? I use a rate of perceived exertion in regular training runs but only if I don't know the proper paces for an athlete and I never use it for a track workout with high school kids.

Tell a pack of high school kids to do a RPE of 6.5 for a track workout and see how that goes.

Oh yes, I forgot, assigning the entire team the same number of repetitions and training volume for a workout is not effective to put it nicely.

If you have an athlete that topped out at 50 miles per week over the summer and another at 20 and they run the same time in a race because of the lesser trained athlete has a higher potential you should never assume they can handle the same workload during the season.

At the same time you should not hold back the athlete by decreasing the training load so that it is appropriate for the lesser trained athlete.

If I have them doing reps at 10k pace to bring on a certain physiological response why would I decrease the number of reps for the kid with the larger base and increase the pace to VO2 max?

Do you understand now?

Raysism wrote:

Stoppit Smith wrote:

Emma Coburn is the prime example. She was hoping to get a bronze but trained like a gold medalist. She was ready when her opportunity came. She didn’t need to write out the goal of winning gold to accomplish it. Instead she focused on the process of doping up.

wait what

OP knocked this troll post out of the park with that little bit. I'm gonna go with 8️⃣.5️⃣/? for minimal splash.

Their last "stop being superficial" thread was bravely posted through tear soaked keyboard. Too bad it didn't stay up long before deletion. I'd like to see more work like this instead of jamin shitting things up with all the girls he's j'in off to.

Raysism wrote:

Stoppit Smith wrote:

Emma Coburn is the prime example. She was hoping to get a bronze but trained like a gold medalist. She was ready when her opportunity came. She didn’t need to write out the goal of winning gold to accomplish it. Instead she focused on the process of doping up.

wait what

I laughed

Stoppit Smith wrote:

STop that right now wrote:

If you're trying to be taken seriously, don't throw baseless accusations of doping out there.

This thread needs to end.

Hey, I was out of line. Thanks for calling me on it! ?

You love to hear yourself talk, or in this case write. Boring, very boring.

I read it all the way through and I think this is garbage. At least you are a HS kid who knows how to write, spell and use punctuation, but you are off the mark.

You write this:

"Most kids in high school improve a TON their freshman year. It’s common to drop 2-4 minutes from the first race to the last one. The same is true for sophomores. Coaches see these breakthroughs on a regular basis and strongly believe in their athletes’ ability to improve and shatter their PRs like they have done in the past."

So I will take you at your word that you meant this and and allow a 3:00 improvement (middle of what you stated) the first two years (you said it was common). That would mean a "slow" male would start at 22:00 and finish at 19:00. Assuming said male improves not at all over the 9 months, he starts the season at 19:00 and finishes at 16:00.

You see where the problem is already don't you?

Then you write:

"On these boards we see tons of hopeful young kids saying they want to run a 16:00 5k despite a 5:30 mile time and kids who haven’t even made it to state saying they want to win NXN. "

I myself DO NOT SEE ANY 5:30 milers with such unrealistic goals, but I will say that I do not read all the posts, far from it. But who has a 5:30 mile PR and posts things? Much less "tons of hopeful young kids"? Anyone with a PR above 5:00 usually asks for advice on how to get under 18:00 or how to run 5:00 / 10:40 next year. You are wrong on this one as well.

Using Coburn as an example of lowering your expectations is ridiculous. The only thing you and the kids you are talking about have in common with Coburn is you both have small chests and own running shoes. Not any kind of evidence for you.

Then you write:

"I remember my coach saying that every athlete on the team should be able to cut 45 seconds off their 5k PR each season. This seems reasonable for most people, but it’s not always a realistic goal. "

How so? In the SAME POST you said it was common for kids to drop 2-4 MINUTES in 9th grade and 10th grade. I am going to assume you know what the word "common" means? Again, this would mean that the average runner would drop 6:00 from beginning of 9th grade to the end of 10th grade XC season.

FWIW, I think that your coach is RIGHT, and he was probably generalizing because you are such a make-a-big-deal out of everything whiny baby. If you are well-trained you should be able to improve :45-1:15 over the course of the season in 9th and 10th, somewhat less in 11th, and only 20-30 seconds over 12th grade ... but this is for people training to their potential.

IF you are running less than 40-50-60-70 respectively, then you should be able to improve EVEN MORE each season because you have so much more to improve.

I agree with every part of this claim. Kids forget -- or don't know -- that true improvement does not happen all in one season. It comes with years and years of consistency. They need to learn to relax and enjoy the ride.