Strategy to go sub-3 at NYC

Conserve your energy. Everything you need is here:

http://mymarathonpace.com/Pacing_Spreadsheets.html

You should average 6:52s but should allow yourself a 7:47 first mile as you run in a crowd up the grade of the Verrazano in the first mile. Your fastest mile will be 12-13 at 6:35 through North Williamsburg and Greenpoint.

That's as much as the free version will allow me but I'm very confident the full version will suggest you have time in hand for the 59th Street Bridge and the grind up 5th Avenue from 110 to Engineers Gate. The two best stretches to really "work" (wind dependent) are 1st Avenue in Manhattan and Harlem after you return from the Bronx. If you're able to run strongly along both of those you've probably paced correctly.

It's all anoit holding back at ley points. Don't push up or down the V. Don't push after 59th st bridge - too tempting. Stay mentally focused on the lonelier stretches. .

You have to come through the half at under 1:30. Not because you should be banking time, but because the second half is harder.

If I were pacing for a 3:00, I would come through the first half in 1:29:30.

Also, you've run the course 4 times, how have you not figured this out yet?

JD Guy wrote:

You have to come through the half at under 1:30. Not because you should be banking time, but because the second half is harder.

If I were pacing for a 3:00, I would come through the first half in 1:29:30.

Also, you've run the course 4 times, how have you not figured this out yet?

I ran last year and the overpasses heading into the Bronx tore me up. My fastest marathon has me 4 minutes faster in the first half, so I'd try for 1:28 in the first half, and 1:30-1:31 in the 2nd half for a 2:58-2:59. Prepare to lose 1-2 minutes on the overpasses into and out of the Bronx

1:20 half and gunning for 3:00? you're still not treating it as a race. go faster.

nyc2016 wrote:

JD Guy wrote:

You have to come through the half at under 1:30. Not because you should be banking time, but because the second half is harder.

If I were pacing for a 3:00, I would come through the first half in 1:29:30.

Also, you've run the course 4 times, how have you not figured this out yet?

I ran last year and the overpasses heading into the Bronx tore me up. My fastest marathon has me 4 minutes faster in the first half, so I'd try for 1:28 in the first half, and 1:30-1:31 in the 2nd half for a 2:58-2:59. Prepare to lose 1-2 minutes on the overpasses into and out of the Bronx

The second half is just brutal. Queensboro Bridge, Willis Ave Bridge, Third Ave. Bridge, and then that dreaded 5th Ave mile. Those final three hills all occur within 4 miles of each other too. Really difficult.

you must go faster wrote:

1:20 half and gunning for 3:00? you're still not treating it as a race. go faster.

It's a hard course. It's conservative for sure but no idea when that 1:20 half was or what sort of training OP has done to this point.

Thanks for the input.

My 1:20 Half PR was in mid-March. Training got shaky in April and May due to an extended vacation (workouts basically stopped) but I just ran a 10-Mile race in a few seconds over one hour within the last month.

Been healthy all year, no injuries or major lapses this summer. Weekly mileage has been pretty standard for me (high 30's) but low by LRC's standards, main workouts have been intervals (5:40ish pace) and marathon pace runs (at 6:50ish pace). I traded in a few long runs for races to satiate my hunger for racing but the long runs have been decent. I'm probably not going in with optimal training but I think I'm near my level from March when I ran the 1:20, with a lot of room for improvement in the years to come.

I know I should have this down by my 5th NYC but I've never really approached it the same way I've approached other races or paid attention to my splits too much. First time is a blur, second time I was still a beginner who wasn't even using a GPS watch, third time I couldn't run a PR due to a family emergency that threw everything out the window and left me sleep deprived the week of the race, and last year I ran the first half with slower friends with the sole intention of running the second half as fast as possible. So this is really my first earnest attempt at running a fast marathon.

I have always struggled quite a bit with the second half of the race, but I'm also afraid of falling into a lull in the first half and not being able to turn the heat up after Queens. So I'm trying to find a delicate balance between conservation and aggression.

13. Bank Time Early.

Go out hard as hell and bank as much time as possible in the first 10k. Time put in the bank earns interest, so if you bank time earlier it will be worth even more later in the race. This tactic also give you a good reason to weave at the start, which really helps get the blood flowing through your legs. Plus, the last 32k will feel so much easier and more relaxed as compared to the hard start.

More tips on the way!

JD Guy wrote:

You have to come through the half at under 1:30. Not because you should be banking time, but because the second half is harder.

If I were pacing for a 3:00, I would come through the first half in 1:29:30.

Also, you've run the course 4 times, how have you not figured this out yet?

.... or ... he could just run the first half at 1:30 and the second half at 1:29:59. This is a 1:20 guy (and a 60min 10miler) - 2:59:59 is a piece of cake even at NYC.

er?eh? wrote:

JD Guy wrote:

You have to come through the half at under 1:30. Not because you should be banking time, but because the second half is harder.

If I were pacing for a 3:00, I would come through the first half in 1:29:30.

Also, you've run the course 4 times, how have you not figured this out yet?

.... or ... he could just run the first half at 1:30 and the second half at 1:29:59. This is a 1:20 guy (and a 60min 10miler) - 2:59:59 is a piece of cake even at NYC.

Terrible plan. Course is set up to positive split. Do not follow this advice. He's a 1:20 guy running 30 mpw right now.

Bank time. I'm serious. I don't know if some of the other responses were sarcastic (I just skimmed and I know everyone has this idea about negative splits) - but I would bank time. I've got a 1:22 high half PR and a 2:54 marathon off of that... I've run 2:59 a couple of times off of halfs ranging between 1:22 and 1:27. You are going to slow down at the end no matter what. That is what I am saying. Even if you jog 20 miles, you aren't going to crank the last 10k with 20 miles already sitting on your legs. It's never going to happen. I'm not saying to bank fifteen minutes, but you want a little cushion... say you run 1:27 and 1:31... something like that. You don't want to go out so hard that you blow up, but you have to figure that you will slow up regardless of whether you come through the first half in 1:27 or 1:30... and if you come through in 1:30 and you can't afford to slow down by even a minute. It just wont work.

In general, this could not be more wrong.

For this course, I can see how you make the argument given how hellish the run into the park is (and the park itself) at the end. But you're still wrong.

NYC is among the worst courses to *plan* on a positive split. It happens to most without the planning. With it, you're really going to be screwed.

Take your post to the extreme. What if there was a course that was completely flat for the first half, and then straight uphill at a 2% grade for the second half. Would you really not plan for a positive split?

If you run by EVEN EFFORT, you will positive split. So why would you not plan for one? You shouldn't run the first half faster than your normal effort would dictate, but you should definitely plan for a positive split.

I second this. I got a PR in first half of 1:24, then cruised in part 2 to get 2:58. Mile 15ish bridge screwed up my watch for pacing so some point I got side stitch thinking I needed to make up time. I worked it of but last 10k impossible to negative split

You do plan for one, by running 1:29:30 for the first half if you want a 2:59 finish.

My 3 NYCs have been:

3:00:06 (off a 1:17:23)

2:31:55 (off a 1:12:20)

2:28:25 (off a 1:13:14)

Don't be like Abdoujaparov.

Ha, edit: 2:38:25 for the last one

I've come to the conclusion that chasing a particular time is not the best or even a good strategy in the marathon. Instead, I have found that I do much better when I run by feel. The most important part is the first half. You want to feel very comfortable and like as you are holding something back. Conversations should be very easy at the halfway point. It's okay to have a range of goal paces in mind but you should listen primarily to how your body feels.

From miles 13-20 you can start to ease on the gas very slowly but be patient and don't turn it loose yet. Expect moderate discomfort in the legs to start creeping in. Breathing is still under control but it's time to stop talking and go to work.

Miles 20-26 is the red zone. It hurts, but you're almost there, so pour it own. Breathing should not be labored until the last mile or two. You can start looking at the clock at this point but I find (1) math is nearly impossible and (2) my body will only go so fast no matter what my mind tells it to do.

Throughout the race you should run even effort on the hills so that you slow down a little bit going up but pick up the pace coming down. Be mindful of the tangents, find someone to tuck in behind if it's windy, and run on the shady side of the street if it's warm.

My two cents. Good luck.

This is correct, running on feel is exactly what we're telling the OP, which means positive splits since the first half is flatter.