Question for Mr. Jack Daniels (et al?)

Not sure why you would do 400s for an LT workout. It's not exactly the best stimulus for LT.

Let's take a target 400m tempo time of 90 seconds (6 min pace) with 40 sec recovery. That's 33 min of temp running with almost 15 minutes of rest mixed in. I think most people would be tempted to run faster than the prescribed time. And I think it would definitely feel like an easy workout. Basically, it's 5 miles in 48 minutes. Not exactly challenging in my opinion.

I doubt you'll get a ton of breakthroughs. I think the workout is just too easy.

Why not just alternate between steady state running and your mile/2k tempo repeats?

I understand that many Daniels converts use 400m repeats for LT training, but I'm with Lu -- I think doing 20+ 400s just complicates the workout too much.

Personally, in order to improve LT, I have different training groups do different length tempo repeats based on time. At the start of the training period, the beginner group does 7 min @ 85%-90% of vVO2Max with 3 min rest, the next group does 10 min, etc., up to the top group which does an uninterrupted run of 30 min at their prescribed pace. As the season goes on, each successive tempo run sees the hard interval increase in time, the rest interval decrease in time, and the pace increase slightly as their vVO2Max improves.

To supplement this, every 10 days to 2 weeks, we do Glycolitic repeats (usually hard 300s) with long rest, which improves the body's ability to buffer lactic acid that's already gathered in the legs.

Thanks for the input.

More info...

We started including the 400M Threshold workout in our "rotation" last season, mostly because some of our 400-800/1600 type guys struggled with sustained efforts at T-pace. The idea was include a workout which built confidence for these guys, while still achieving a component of threshold training. Lately, we have been doing a sustained T-effort, cruise 2Ks and "cruise 400s", each once every two(ish) weeks, with one 300 rep workout @ fractional 400 pace and one-two sets of Ks at vVO2max in the same period.

Midwest HS Coach wrote:

...some of our 400-800/1600 type guys struggled with sustained efforts at T-pace. The idea was include a workout which built confidence for these guys, while still achieving a component of threshold training. Lately, we have been doing a sustained T-effort, cruise 2Ks and "cruise 400s", each once every two(ish) weeks...

I think you'd have better success by scrapping the 400s and the 2ks and doing 1k repeats instead. And do LT work more frequently, like weekly rather than every two weeks. Every 10 days at the least.

Your 8/16 guys should be able to hold LT pace for 5-6 of them with like 90 sec rest. Do this for a few weeks and then move them up to mile repeats at the same pace for a few weeks. Then introduce some longer, sustained LT work, like 2 x 2 miles with 4 min rest.

The mental component of longer tempo running for your mid-distance guys is what they need to work on. Build their minds by slowly stretching the length of the run. 400s do nothing for an 8/16 guys mental strength. In fact, I'd argue that the short stuff might be working against you.

Definitely not Daniels but I agree generally with Lu. Your 800 guy could probably do 1200 cruise intervals comfortably. Still if this an occasional workout on an otherwise intense week, it's probably a fine idea.

As to whether the results are worthy of indicating increased fitness, my take is that they are not. 400s at T pace are easy to "cheat" on. By that I mean that they can do them at a faster pace than the workout requires.

You've probably seen the same thing for some of your runners when they do 800s at vo2max pace. Another workout that is just short enough for fit runners to "cheat."

>>> I'm afraid you may be right...

By the way, I really apprieciate the input/discussion with you guys. I wish this was the norm for letsrun.

Varsity Lu, please note some of my responses ended up embedded in yours... sorry, I'm not experienced with this forum.

You know, when you say things like "the pro jumps in", it implies that the opinions of others should be discounted and that you have some sort of higher standing. It's one of the many reasons most people on this forum find you so irritating.

Perhaps it is unintentional, but now you that you have been informed, I will assume it's intentional going forward.

Smoove and varsity lu are "the pros." Great advice.

22x400 w :40 rest is not a JD workout, to my knowledge. Too short of a rest for Reps; too short of a duration for Intervals.

it is a worthwhile workout if you are predominantly a fast twitcher, but keep the recovery an active one. Look at this thread and the comparison between Lopes and Mamede. Not all athletes are the same. Most coaches would learn a lot from this excellent analysis:

For example; Mamede did not like to do hard tempo runs like Lopes, but he was able to run lots of 400m intervals and have exactly the same effect on his LTP that Lopes had on HIS LTP / MaxLaSS when he did tempo runs.

Mamede did this because he kept the recovery very short (something we do here too). AND (very important) he made the recovery active (100m jog in ~40 secs). This session would not have worked so well in raising his LTP if he had had a passive recovery (standstill for 40 secs), doing so would have given his anaerobic ability time to recover and so the next rep (and all subsequent reps) would have been run with too high anaerobic content and not stressed his aerobic capacity/lactate clearance as he wanted (and which he needed to raise his LTP).

So what Mamede was doing was exposing his body to some little lactate with 400m at ~10k pace and then letting his body learn how to clear it in the 40 secs jog of 100m. So; exposure / clearance, exposure / clearance ... and very soon Mamedes blood lactate at 10k pace would get lower (as his clearance ability improved) and he would feel more comfortable at that pace.

Read more:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=2375989&page=2#ixzz4s903JTI0

Thanks for this...

I appreciate the thoughtful input... here's a follow-up discussion/question:

Earlier, I pointed out that we run the three different types of threshold workouts, including miles (or 2Ks) with 60sec rest. Using our front group as an example, our recent race performances indicate VDOTs of 64.5, 64, 63, 62.5, 62, 62, 62, corresponding to Daniels T-pace of 5:34, 5:36, 5:41, 5:43, 5:45, 5:45, 5:45 per mile. The same guys recently ran 5xmile with 60s rest intervals at an average of 5:13, 5:32, 5:39, 5:40, 5:20, 5:22, 5:26.

As you see, three of our top guys seem to be right about where Daniels would indicate they should be on their threshold workouts, while four others easily blow by their target paces.

Since VDOT is based on race performance, it must represent a composite of the all the factors that determine race ability. So when the pace target 5:34 guy easily runs 5:13s, is it possible that's telling me his "threshold development" is well ahead of the other components that make up his racing ability and we should be tailoring his workouts to emphasize other components? This guy has pretty good (52-53 400M) speed, competes well to the finish, but tends to sag a bit in the mid-race.

Although it would be difficult to organize, I think we could put together different workout types for different guys on the same day...

What do you guys think?

I think it may just be a case of kids being kids and cranking harder than they need to crank.

Personally, I would keep things simple and consistent and keep them on the same workout during cross season, and just adjust the paces (which you have done).

Maybe think of a fun way to incentivize them to lock in the right pace. I don't know what is forbidden at the high school level theses days, but something like the kid who is farthest off from his targeted pace runs an extra couple of miles on his cool down. Or the kid who is closest to his targeted pace gets to choose his seat on the van first for the next travel meet. Make the goal hitting the desired pace, not just crushing times.

The Daniels paces can be wildly inaccurate for distances not near what you are basing the VDOT on.

Example: Guy runs 17:00 which gives him a VDOT of 57 (May not be true but I don't have the table on hand)

That guy gets a "pace" from mile up to easy pace based on his VDOT number from that 5k performance. The problem with this is that it assumes he has a certain exact level of both speed and endurance. This is almost never the case with young athletes. They almost always have more speed than endurance, sometimes greatly so.

Now his threshold, tempo, moderate, and easy paces are too fast, and his intervals and reps are too slow.

What is the solution?

Use the actual performance an athlete could do at a distance to set a pace. E.g. If tempo targets 1 hr race pace, figure out what pace the athlete could do for 1 hr. If moderate is 3 hr pace, do the same, and if interval is 11 min pace, do the same.

Again, the Daniels VDOT paces assume a certain endurance decay which is almost never the case, especially in young athletes.

Smoove wrote:

I think it may just be a case of kids being kids and cranking harder than they need to crank.

This. Just because they CAN run it faster doesn't mean they SHOULD run it faster. Your front guy averaging 5:13 probably did not work his LT on that day. He was kind of in no man's land as far as stressing a specific training component.

One thing I do is use Daniels paces as a guide, but teach my boys how to listen to their breathing and feel for lactate buildup. If you know what to look for, you can sense when you are running too fast. Breathing too fast, feeling tight in the shoulders, etc. are all indications that you are no longer at the LT point.

Also, watch your boys when they finish a repeat. Are they gasping, breathing heavy, and unable to say sentences easily? Do they hunch over with their hands on their knees breathing heavily? Too hard. Tempo pace should allow you to end the repeat, take one deep breath & blow it out, and be pretty much back to normal respiration almost immediately.

Also, the boys need to understand the purpose of the workout. I have kids who consistently want to run everything at the max they are able to. They need to understand what system each workout stresses and why they need to focus on that system. Running slower and staying in or slightly below your LT will develop that system better than hammering the workout. This is a difficult concept for some kids to understand.

Breathing rhythm is one test that I employ, but don't know that I could teach others to recognize the change. So I like to use the Pledge of Allegiance test. If you can continuously recite it during a threshold effort, you're going too slow. If you cannot get out entire clauses at one time, you are going too fast.

If I basically find myself here, I know I'm ballpark in the right range:

I pledge allegiance to the flag . . .

Breath, breath

of the United States of America . . .

Breath breath

and to the republic for which it stands . . .

Fjjfjcjcfj wrote:

Daniels VDOT paces assume a certain endurance decay which is almost never the case, especially in young athletes.

Interesting you say this, because I find the opposite. I feel like Daniels assumes proper endurance development which I find makes his tempo paces many times too fast for young athletes. Most of my guys have more developed speed than endurance which gives them a higher VDOT based on their mile times. I tend to assign VDOTs based on a blend of mile PR and current 5k race times. 58 mile VDOT, 54 5k VDOT...I am using 56 as his VDOT for paces.

You guys are great... the only things missing are a couple beers and we could talk training all night.

I'm still kind of hoping to turn come up with a diagnostic tool in all of this... with the goal of better individualizing our training.

Addressing some points:

I've always felt Daniels T-paces are a "click" or two slow... that is, the accurate T pace for a 60 guy, seems to be more like the 61 or 62 pace in our experience.

And, we also emphasize feel... I like the Pledge of Allegiance approach, our equivalent is to preach rhythm, in - in - out - out with steps, or few word phrases, no numbness in the quads or shoulders (although our training loop has a bit of roll to it and can probably take guys briefly over the edge).

However, we also emphasize pack running in our workouts so some guys may be running over their head to stay in the pack. We try to avoid this by staggering the starts to compensate for differences in the the pace targets; e.g., start a 5:24 target guy 4sec behind a 5:20 guy, with the goal to pull even in the last few steps.

Also, I've always hoped that the rest interval would properly control the pace. That is, if the guys can run 1st approx equal to last, and others in between, on 60 sec rest, then the pace must be correct.