Caster QOTD: last straw for me on her situation.

She and her agent are just opportunists, to put it politely.

Spaghettimonster wrote:

I've always maintained that Semenya was an innocent bystander in the intersex debate, as it isn't her fault she was born this way. She has a right to compete, the only question is whether her testosterone needs to be altered. What is NOT up for debate is whether her condition is what makes her the best. Of course it is, that's plain to any lucid person. And for her to outright deny that and act as if people who think she has an unfair advantage are "haters" of some kind have pretty much ended my stint with being on her side.

Agree. +1.

Counterpoint: "I'm not doping - why does everyone keep on my ass about trying to drug me?"

Karl Hungus wrote:

Counterpoint: "I'm not doping - why does everyone keep on my ass about trying to drug me?"

Most professional runners are a lot more gracious than that. For example, Jager's recent response to the fancy bears "leak." (Leak in quotes because we don't know if it is legit info or made up at this point.)

Drug Of Choice wrote:

She and her agent are just opportunists, to put it politely.

Maybe the first, but certainly not the last. International elite sport is over for xx women.

Unless the IAAF prevails with CAS in getting their testosterone-moderating protocol back in place. Which would be pretty much the demise of Casters free ride.

pop_pop!_v2.2.1 wrote:

Drug Of Choice wrote:

She and her agent are just opportunists, to put it politely.

Maybe the first, but certainly not the last. International elite sport is over for xx women.

Oh You Again wrote:

Unless the IAAF prevails with CAS in getting their testosterone-moderating protocol back in place. Which would be pretty much the demise of Casters free ride.

Not quite, as she won also Gold in London 2012 with reduced testosterone. But yes, it would certainly help.

Vegetenarianism wrote:

Karl Hungus wrote:

Counterpoint: "I'm not doping - why does everyone keep on my ass about trying to drug me?"

Most professional runners are a lot more gracious than that. For example, Jager's recent response to the fancy bears "leak." (Leak in quotes because we don't know if it is legit info or made up at this point.)

Leak does not need to be in quotations. The IAAF issued an apology, so we do know that it was "legit info".

Wow. Some attitude. Semenya has no idea of the typical workplace then, where generally people aren't there to be "nice" or "kind" to you but for the purposes of their jobs.

We really need to end this farce of having two races - one for men, and one for moderate men with underdeveloped organs. The latter is no reason for them not running in the former.

Only attractive heterosexual women should be allowed to run professionally.

MAGA

1. What is the actual evidence that Niyonsaba and Wambui are hyperandrogenic? I'm with you on Semenya and maybe Wambui. But Niyonsaba is a svelte 5'5", 130 lbs. I've seen her up close and wouldn't look twice at her among group of small east African female athletes.

2. Have any of you ever been to Burundi? If you had, I suspect you would speak less rudely of Niyonsaba.

Who says you have to look like a man to be hyperandrogenic? Maybe Alyson Felix is a secret man.

been to Buj wrote:

1. What is the actual evidence that Niyonsaba and Wambui are hyperandrogenic?

Zero.

I think the testosterone modification is the best idea. I also understand how Semenya would be upset by all of the talk surrounding her/this issue.

been to Buj wrote:

1. What is the actual evidence that Niyonsaba and Wambui are hyperandrogenic? I'm with you on Semenya and maybe Wambui. But Niyonsaba is a svelte 5'5", 130 lbs. I've seen her up close and wouldn't look twice at her among group of small east African female athletes.

2. Have any of you ever been to Burundi? If you had, I suspect you would speak less rudely of Niyonsaba.

I've been meaning to say this as well, Niyonsaba doesn't really have anything "obvious" that would seem to pass her off as hyperandrogenous. However, I'm sure rumors this large wouldn't start without any solid basis. To play devils advocate of sorts, her flat chest and powerful thighs do hint to something.

And to speak for Semenya, it isn't fair to act as though she hasn't been harrassed by most of the people in the sport she takes interest in.

Semenya's mother doped her when she was developing in the womb. This is the next form of doping. Problem is they went a little too far and got a man-freak without a penis.

been to Buj wrote:

1. What is the actual evidence that Niyonsaba and Wambui are hyperandrogenic? I'm with you on Semenya and maybe Wambui. But Niyonsaba is a svelte 5'5", 130 lbs. I've seen her up close and wouldn't look twice at her among group of small east African female athletes.

2. Have any of you ever been to Burundi? If you had, I suspect you would speak less rudely of Niyonsaba.

______________________

The problem with this thinking is that it assumes you can identify women with intersex conditions on site. There's probably a loose correlation between hyperandrogenism and male secondary sex characteristics, but it's not a condition that we can eyeball with accuracy. This leads people to start bashing women they view as "manly." And because feminine beauty ideals are associated with white, Western women, the whole thing becomes a cesspool of racism and misogyny.

In all the noise, valid questions about how sex differences should be handled in order to promote fair sport get dismissed on the grounds of the "isms."

As the Yorkshire saying goes strong in the arm and thick in the head.

Get off this forum if all you're going to do is offer logical, non-hysterical observations.

been to Buj wrote:

1. What is the actual evidence that Niyonsaba and Wambui are hyperandrogenic? I'm with you on Semenya and maybe Wambui. But Niyonsaba is a svelte 5'5", 130 lbs. I've seen her up close and wouldn't look twice at her among group of small east African female athletes.

2. Have any of you ever been to Burundi? If you had, I suspect you would speak less rudely of Niyonsaba.

I never said a word about Wambui and Niyonsaba.