Success with Daniels?

not familiar with coach JS either. he mentions low mileage. what sort of mileage would he consider appropriate for a sub 3 marathon target for someone balancing training with long work hours and young kids?

what percentage of mileage is hard with coach JS? are we talking about 80/20 easy/hard or what is his principles?

maxy wrote:

not familiar with coach JS either. he mentions low mileage. what sort of mileage would he consider appropriate for a sub 3 marathon target for someone balancing training with long work hours and young kids?

what percentage of mileage is hard with coach JS? are we talking about 80/20 easy/hard or what is his principles?

I build the training week out from the 3 main factors for the result . MaxVO2-pace, LT-pace and the very best aerobic power pace. My system called DANCAN is perfect for a runner with long work hours and young kids to fit the training in and have strength to do it. Only mileage enough to reach the goal. You need only 5-6 sessions per week and around 45-50 miles per week to reach sub 3 hours. Of course sub 3 can be done on less mileage also and just 4 sessions per week, it depends on age and talent.

The constant self promotion along with posts where you pose as other people talking about you are exhausting Jan. This thread was about questions on Daniels' principles. Not sure whe you are mucking it up with your routine.

As to the poster who suggested Daniels will burn you out, Daniels has worked well for me and athletes that I coach. Interestingly, most people criticized him for being too easy on people for a very long time because of his emphasis on quality over quantity. And if you are doing vo2max workouts "week in, week out," you are doing things wrong. Daniels uses a periodized approach and would typically emphasize vo2max work for about 6 weeks. There may be some vo2max maintenance work on top of that 6 weeks, but it's not every week.

The world isn't black and white. For a Tinman or Canova approach to work, Daniels doesn't have to be "wrong." In fact, I'd say the core essence of a Faniels approach is still in wide use at the NCAA level today (and is probably the most broadly used approach to training).

Personally i like the look of daniels plans. he seems to touch on all areas in his plans. the one thing he does not recommend is hill training.

ive read that continuous hills are great preparation. but am very suprised daniels is against hill training. do any of you who use daniels plans, replace some workouts with hills?

Have you read his book?

He isn't against hill training. He considers hill work as analogous to rep work. He just doesn't specifically prescribe it. But he'd have no qualms if you dropped a 4 x 200, 4 x 400, 4 x 200 workout and did hill sprints instead. Both work to emphasize good form and result in running economy gains.

Well.....Smoove, You are following Daniels almost 100% . I have just taken what I see is the best part of Daniels, his EXACT paces, into my own system and mixed it with the other great guys in history like Lydiard, Canova, Gerschler and Stampfl and added my own specialties .

Of course if you are doing maxVO2 workouts "week in, week out" you are not following Daniels phase-system, just the part with his EXACT paces at maxVO2-pace, LT-pace and the very best aerobic power pace. But my system is still very much influenced by Daniels principles.

What I have come up with is a linear system with the same basic training week after week and maxVO2-intervals "week in , week out", not reps of 3-5 min of duration but mostly 20 x 400m , and in combination with longer LT-intervals "week in, week out" it has given a system that has shown to be even more effective than Daniels .

I`m convinced that if you let me coach you with my system you would run faster than ever! But of course I understand that it`s of principle for you to hold on to what you believe in . It`s a proverb you know well " hard to teach old dogs sit" . )))

And at last in this comment I can assure you that some people here actually talking about me in a positive way. There are some that have understand that I have found something innovatively that will take the development of running further into the future.

- The Wizard -

Great idea - give a back handed compliment to one of the better runners on the boards who consistently gives sound advice (especially on Daniels' training - the supposed focus of this thread), and then essentially claim you would provide better coaching to him with no evidence except your arrogance. Seriously, get an anonymous handle and start posting in the political nut job threads with rojo where you belong.

Hehe! Keep on eat your doughnuts..... ))) How can you get it to that I gave him a back handed compliment? And as I said, my system is partly built on Daniels exact paces.So it`s very much Daniels influenced and will therefore give me "permission" to comment on " Daniels-threads". I and Smoove just disagree when it comes to some details in Daniels`training and he follows Daniels training and plans almost up to 100% , I don`t ! I have designed my own very effective system out from a long running experience , among other things as a national elite runner.

If you don`t think coaching 11 winners of international races in just 3 years time makes me more qualified as a coach than Smoove it`s up to you.

You came into a thread about Daniels and said your system is better and told one of the better runners who uses Daniels that you should coach him and he would be better for it... Pretty rude and arrogant as usual, that is all.

Would u recommend daniels half marathon plan in your experience? id have 3 months to prepare. so thinking of doing 4 weeks from phases 2, 3, and 4?

aim to do a half marathon beginning of April and then Marathon end of October? Sound like a good plan of attack? or better off focusing on 10k earlier in the year. what you reckon smoove?

I haven't seen his half marathon plan, which I believe he added for the third edition. In prior editions, he notes that it is a "tweener" distance and you can either approach it using a 5k/10k approach and racing up in distance, or using a marathon approach and racing down in distance. I've don't both, but generally prefer a marathon approach - lots of long cruise intervals (6-7 x 1 mile, 3 x 2 miles, 3-2-1), some cruise intervals mixed into long runs - with some modification by adding in some vo2max work at the beginning and end of the cycle.

Jan, answer this one question honestly: have you posted under any other user names on this thread?

maxy wrote:

Would u recommend daniels half marathon plan in your experience? id have 3 months to prepare. so thinking of doing 4 weeks from phases 2, 3, and 4?

aim to do a half marathon beginning of April and then Marathon end of October? Sound like a good plan of attack? or better off focusing on 10k earlier in the year. what you reckon smoove?

I can't speak for Smoove, but he would probably want to know where you are currently in your training. Did you recover after your last season and already rebuild your base up? Then you could probably do that, just make sure to give yourself plenty of recovery after the half if you race it hard. You could also probably work in a 10k before the half of you want to do both. It would be a great half workout. But Smoove may give some better advice. He has more experience than me and is a better runner. (and he has coached, which if have not)

Thank you Smoove. These cruise intervals should be at T pace and no quicker per Daniels guidance? short rest. 1 minute per mile. Most of this done in last 4-6 weeks before a half marathon?

Do you do alot of Interval vo2 max work throughout the year?

Do you do any hill workouts for your half and full marathon prep?

Daniels goes with 1 minute for every 5 minutes at tempo pace. For someone running 5:20-5:40 for tempo pace, I just go with 1:00/mile. For anyone 6:00 or above, I add on some time.

How much time emphasizing cruise intervals depends on how much time you have and what other races might be on the horizon. In his marathon plans, he goes 12 weeks emphasizing cruise intervals.

But I do tempo work almost every week when I'm doing workouts, so the issue is really what the second workout of the week would be.

Sorry, I was skimming some of these posts - how many weeks until your half?

Well the big aim Smoove is marathon end of October. im unsure how to structure the year. was thinking to do a half early april? or should i only focus on shorter stuff in first half of the year. Marathon plan would be starting late june or beginning of July?

my last half was in September and ive not raced since. been very busy so mostly just easy running. 1.22 back then.

any tips how i should structure the year? thinking of daniels 2q plan for the marathon.

SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:

Hehe! Keep on eat your doughnuts..... ))) How can you get it to that I gave him a back handed compliment? And as I said, my system is partly built on Daniels exact paces.So it`s very much Daniels influenced and will therefore give me "permission" to comment on " Daniels-threads". I and Smoove just disagree when it comes to some details in Daniels`training and he follows Daniels training and plans almost up to 100% , I don`t ! I have designed my own very effective system out from a long running experience , among other things as a national elite runner.

If you don`t think coaching 11 winners of international races in just 3 years time makes me more qualified as a coach than Smoove it`s up to you.

Who are these winners?

Interesting on the half marathon preparation. What is the general approach to racing down from a marathon plan to half marathon?

What are the longest long runs for half marathon and how many of them to do? How many fast finish long runs?

Below is a 12 week half-marathon plan that I put together for a woman that I coached. She was an 18:20 5k runner and went on to run 17:35 on the roads during this training cycle.

Because she was a lower volume runner due to some back issues (45 miles per week was her high mileage mark, plus one day of aerobic cross training), and because her goal race came in the middle of our local race series which emphasized 5k to 10k distances and breaking 18:00 in the 5k was also a goal in this cycle, we used a 5k/10k approach, adjusting the tempo workouts and then "racing up." Below are the quality days for those 12 weeks, starting 12 weeks out from race day.

A few things worth noting:

- Note the conscious effort to grow into the longer cruise interval sessions, starting with 4 x 2000m cruise intervals and eventually working up to 3 x 3200m intervals.

- Note that some of the tempo sessions were integrated into her long run.

- Note that one of the quality sessions per week starting in week 10 really focused more on race modeling and fitness maintenance than on building additional fitness.

-Note that there is not a lot of rep work during this cycle. She had done a bit of this earlier in the year before this cycle started, and I only had 12 weeks to get ready, so we had to prioritize what would be most important for her goal races.

- Note that, despite this being a 5k centric plan, there was not a vo2max workout on the calendar "week in, week out." She had 6 meaningful v02max workouts (including her Turkey Trot) spread out over about 8 weeks.

- Note that we did not include any hill work. That was not because Daniels doesn't like hill work, but rather because (1) we live in a pancake flat area, and (2) hill work serves the same purpose as rep work in a Daniels scheme, and, as noted above, we had to prioritize vo2max and threshold workouts because of the time available to us (and because she had already recently done some rep work).

- What you don't see is that the weeks where you have the highest intensity also tended to be the weeks with the lowest mileage and vice versa.

1:

2 miles up; 4 x 1.25 miles tempo w/1:30 rest; 2 miles down

2 up; 20 minute tempo run; 2 down

12 miles easy

2:

2 miles up; 3 x 1.5 miles tempo w/2:00 rest; 2 miles down

2 up; 25 minute tempo run at temp pace plus :06/mile; 1 down

13 miles easy

3:

8 miles easy with 4 x :30 accelerations built in

Turkey Trot 18:12 (PR)

13 miles easy

4:

1 miles up; 2 x 2 miles tempo w/2:30 rest; 1 miles down

2 up; 5 x 1 mile at tempo pace with :75 rest; 5 miles down (12 total)

5:

6 x 800 at 5krace pace with 2:30 rest

1 miles up; 3 x 2 mile tempo w/2:30 rest; 1 miles down

13 miles easy

6:

5 x 1000 at 5k race pace with 3:00 rest

2 miles up; 4 x 1 mile tempo w/1:15 rest; 2 miles down

14 miles easy

7:

4 x 1200 at 5k race pace with 4:00 rest

3 miles up, 3 x 2 miles at tempo pace with 2:30 rest, 1 mile at tempo pace; 3 miles down (13 miles total)

8:

4 x 1 mile at tempo pace with 1:15 recovery

2 up; 20 minute tempo run; 1 down

14 miles easy

9:

5 x 1000 at 5k race pace with 3:00 rest

2 mi up; 3 x 1 mile at tempo pace w/1:15 rest; 4 miles easy; 2 x mile at tempo pace w/1:15 rest; 2 miles down (13 miles total)

10:

3 sets of 200 at mile race pace, 200 jog, 800 at 5k race pace, 200 jog, 200 at mile race pace; 4:00 jog between sets

2 up; 20 minute tempo run; 2 down

14 miles easy

11:

3 x 200 at mile race pace with 200 very slow jog; 6 x 400 at 5k race pace with 200 slow jog; 3 x 200 at mile race pace with very slow jog

5k race (17:35 - PR)

12 miles easy

12:

1 mile up; 4 x 1200 at tempo pace with 1:00 rest; 1 mile down

Half Marathon (I cannot recall the time, but she had a slow race - she either peaked a week too early or she had an emotional let down after the :30 5k PR the week before)

If I were emphasizing an October marathon (as I did in 2015 and 2018), I would emphasize recovery from my prior cycle, then easy distance, then volume building up through the beginning of June, then I would build in a 6 week block of doing one 5k paced workout and one tempo workout per week from June through mid-July, with a 12 week block emphasizing tempo work (with some limited number of marathon paced workouts mixed in) to close things out for the marathon cycle.

I would probably go with a 5k oriented half marathon approach employing principles similar to the plan above in the period from now through March as I think it would (1) allow you to get used to some of the longer cruise interval style workouts that you will do in marathon training, and (2) get you comfortable working at vo2max pace in advance of the block of work that you will be doing from June through mid-July.

One other thing - the timing for marathon training that I mentioned below was what I employed when running Chicago. Since your marathon is at the end of October instead of the beginning, you would shift things about 3 weeks or so from the timing that I laid out.