This is why you won't be a competitive masters guy if you run heavy miles all your life

Of course your tendons and muscles lose elasticity and RoM, that's a symptom of getting old, regardless of the miles on your legs.

In my younger days there was this widely held belief that running ruined your knees over time, something I've heard dozens of times over the years. Yet their is a plurality of research out there that running preserves and even improves knee health.

If you were to say that continuing to stress injured tendons will lead to long-term issues, I don't think anyone would disagree with you, but that's a very different topic than logging (tons of) miles on 'healthy' legs and joints.

Absent extended longitudinal studies, it's all going to be pretty anecdotal, and probably there are genetic differences, and some biomechanics that are inclined to suffer wear and tear more than others.

My experience, having competed from 13 up until 59 (60 in a couple of weeks), is that in relative terms I've actually improved with age.

I was never stellar - 1:57 800m; 4;20 mile; 8:40 3000m - but I competed in England in track league competition to my late 30s, then came to the U.S., where I turned to road racing, with the occasional trip to the U.S. Masters Championships, where I've been fortunate enough to place a few times.

I was never a big mileage trainer, but have always trained hard - probably over-trained as far as intensity is concerned - and kept doing speedwork.

Through my 50s, I've run age-graded bests from 1500m to 10000m, and coming in on 60, I'm still doing my longer runs at not too much over 7 min per mile.

I think it comes down to a number of variables. First would be a blessed shuffle of genetics, just have the good fortunate to have stayed healthy, probably reasonable T levels, and so on, not putting on weight (I'm lighter than when I ran my fastest 800m). Still doing some physical work - I'm a desk jockey, but have horses, which can involve stacking 100+ 55lb bales of hay.

Training factors - maintaining intensity, including some full out sprints; work on core, hips and glutes - and stride coach - to try and avoid dropping to the dreaded "shuffle."

Motivation - which I think is why some of the better runners have slowed down. When you have successfully competed at a high-level, I'm sure it's hard to be motivated to be first 55 year old in your local 5k. Personally, I've always loved competition; I love pushing myself, and am more inclined to run too hard in training if I'm not careful; and being a "never was" I'm more motivated by being nearer the top of the old guy division, looking at rankings and age group bests, and so.

Overall though, I'm far from convinced that training hard through life means you can't be a competitive masters runner in your 50s and beyond

It's a very interesting discussion I think and also highlights the fact that running is so much more than just 'aerobic ability'. Yes, it's very important but it's very much a part of the overall puzzle and actually is probably overrated by most on here.

Muscle reactivity with the ground is almost totally ignored. Elites ground contact time is incredibly small which is all to do with elastic recoil in the muscles and tendons and is probably a better predictor of performance than aerobic ability alone.

Lagat has been mentioned a lot here but he was very low mileage compared to most and actually his training was all about feeling bouncy and light and springy, hence why he never ran slow. He needed to feel fast and light, not a plodder.

There are also numerous theories about the Kenyan dominance coming from the length and reactivity of their achilles tendons compared to their Caucasian counterparts. Aerobically things are on a par but they're just 'springier'. Speed = Stride length*stride cadence after all.

Food for thought.

Cortez the Killer wrote:

It's better to burn out

than to fade away.

Yeah, most of the guys crushing me in the age group now didn't run much in their 20s or 30s.

Wouldn't change a thing.

Very well done.

Haile broke the world marathon record aged 35 and ran 2:06 low aged 37, after consistent high mileage starting in childhood. And of course, many people believe he's older than his official age.

How many miles do you think it takes?

pr100 wrote:

Haile broke the world marathon record aged 35 and ran 2:06 low aged 37, after consistent high mileage starting in childhood. And of course, many people believe he's older than his official age.

How many miles do you think it takes?

Honestly have no idea, but some are clearly doing better than others regarding this. As others have mentioned, other factors, including size may be at play, as a tiny guy like Haile may not sustain nearly the amount of wear and tear as a guy who's a bit larger (99.9% of the folks we're talking about). He really hadn't reached the age where this discussion is targeted either. These guys who are hanging on with great performances in their mid to late 30s really aren't who I'm talking about, but they certainly are still exceptions to the typical. As I've mentioned before, there are outliers, but to me, it looks like the exception and not the rule.

Haile is a great example of someone who may defy my hypothesis, He has stated that he will never stop running, even in retirement, so maybe he'll be around at 50+ to test his competitiveness. On the other end of the spectrum, look at Alberto Salazar. Obviously he's had his serious health issues, but structually he is sound and he can barely run.

Just wow... wrote:

Honestly have no idea, but some are clearly doing better than others regarding this. As others have mentioned, other factors, including size may be at play, as a tiny guy like Haile may not sustain nearly the amount of wear and tear as a guy who's a bit larger (99.9% of the folks we're talking about). He really hadn't reached the age where this discussion is targeted either. These guys who are hanging on with great performances in their mid to late 30s really aren't who I'm talking about, but they certainly are still exceptions to the typical. As I've mentioned before, there are outliers, but to me, it looks like the exception and not the rule.

I think that the psychological motivation to train hard when you at a certain age such as your 40s or 50s is an as big a factor in performance decline as the aging process or injuries themselves. At present, virtually all societies in the world are not really set up to reward or acknowledge someone aged in their 40s or 50s spending a huge chunk of their life to training hard to get the absolute most out of themselves athletically - this is not the same as someone competing in masters divisions at the moment who will be doing so with a lot of constraints. So the talent pool in those age groups is going to be very small compared with that of the teens/20s age groups.

However, within the next 2 decades over half of the world's population will be aged over 40 and maybe attitudes will change then. The Olympics for example could introduce an over age 40 category and then for sure the performaces in those age groups will explode. The same sort of thing happened when women were allowed to have their separate category in the Olympics and in distance running (starting 1970s?).

PTF wrote:

ggilder wrote:

[quote] the more you run, short of ultra-madness, the better you run.

Running 30 mpw is very low mileage...at least to me. In 40 years of running, I don't think I ever ran that little and would have essentially considered it a week off.

Perhaps I should clarify that 30 mpw (which is a rough average over some 65 years, including injuries as well as hard weeks up to 50-60 mis). As I grew older, I converted speed work into hill work and nearly all my runs over the last twenty years included a major hill, and usually two or three, often 2 miles long or so. In the winter, I would often do a month or more of very hilly cross country skiing. My races, where I often do over-70 course records (I'm 77), are hills and trails, up to around 16 miles (mostly half marathons). I definitely am slowing down a bit (26 minute 5K last Saturday up and down a long slow slope on the roads).

Tim Noakes wrote about this in Lore of Running. He gave as an example Bill Rodgers, who competed on an elite level during a long period of time and could not perform well in his older years.

Coyote Montane wrote:

This thread is annoying and not evidence based. There area few good points though, the best being that everyone is different as they age and that probably motivation is the first thing to go and that may or may not be linked to inflexible tendons.

Based on my experience and perception...motivation is definitely not the first thing to go. Not by a long shot.

Alberto efforts in certain races were life draining-Falmouth,the run in the sun and NY. Outside of Jim Peters I cannot think of a runner that did more damage to his body. Pre talked that kind of effort but never went that deep.Alberto is lucky to be alive today.

Just a bit younger but similar experience and lifestyle to yours. Started a bit later and not quite as fast in the shorter distances but low 15s for 5K/31s and 32s for 10K, and a whole lot of racing before and since I did those. Kept at it except when injured. Not always a high mileage runner but did have 7 years in my 20s when I ran 70-100 miles a week. The only time I'd back down was when injured, so that took out a couple years, but other than that still at it in my late 50s and still running 60-80 mile weeks. Age grading higher than at my best, for whatever that's worth. No drugs, no enhancements, and not especially gifted biomechanically. I simply like to run and race.

And I agree completely with your final statement and believe there is a lot of hot air and hogwash thrown about in this discussion.

Another oldie wrote:

PTF wrote:

This is a very interesting account and actually makes a good case for just wow's point. Running 30 mpw is very low mileage...at least to me. In 40 years of running, I don't think I ever ran that little and would have essentially considered it a week off.

Congratulations by the way.

What kinds of times/age grade percentages are you running now?

Just to give some perspective to where I am now...

Ran a very consistent 75-85 mpw (no doubles) from my mid-20's to about 40 years old and ran low 16:05 for 5K, 26:05 for 5mi, 2:34:30 for marathon etc...these were the best times...but was pretty consistent and was never injured. Training was on the easy side...intensity-wise. Had very slight drop-off by the time I was 40.

After that..mileage began dropping very slightly so that I was running about a very consistent 60-70mpw through my 40's. Had a few injuries during this time but nothing too lengthy. Was able to train through most of the time. An achilles tendon injury seemed to take something out of me permanently though. Calf injuries began cropping up. Still...the highlights were a 21:21 4mi at age 44 a 57:50 10mi (maybe a little short) at age 47, a 28:40 5mi at 49+.

At 52 I trained really hard for NYC and ran 17:26 for 5K, 59:36 for a very hilly 10mi and a disappointing 2:53 at NYC. After that, I got a nagging calf achilles problem. Performances started to slip a bit after this.

Kept running 55-60mpw until I was 58..just a couple of years ago. At 54 my mom got in a bad car accident and I assumed a stressful care-taking role. Shortly thereafter, my brother imploded with a mental illness so this added to the care-taking duties. Ran 6:19 pace for a 7mi at age 57. That was 3 years ago. Declined precipitously after that. Have been hurt for the last 4 months. Can't run. Before I got hurt, I'd guess I'd be able to run a mile all-out in 6:10-6:20.

Motivation never ever waivered...although naturally I got discouraged. But one good run and all the discouragement was right out the window.

Note that I held together pretty well through my 40's. During this time I ran with more variety in pace...maybe a bit more intensity. I also did a extra stuff that would improve muscle elasticity...bouncing, jumping etc..

So this is an example of someone who ran consistently decent (not really high) mileage...without any real breaks. Doesn't prove much I guess.

An interesting case is Ed W. He didn't seem to have high lifetime mileage until his 60s from what I can gather (not sure of his mileage in his 40s and 50s while competing shorter distances), but after suffering from achilles' tendon injuries he slowed down his training dramatically while increasing his mileage massively. Even in his 70s and 80s he had a characteristically "bouncy" stride, even when jogging. Of course a major component her was his low body weight. He was essentially the white 70-something version of a young Kenyan.

I don't think it's the mileage, it's the overall oxidative stress. Running long slow miles builds aerobic capacity with minimal oxidative stress, especially when done as a fat-adapted athlete. This is my personal experience of the last year, with Ed W-type training (only 1.5-2 hours/day though). I feel fresh and springy at 60 that is far improved from my 40s and 50s.

Do the heavy miles because you can reach higher heights when doing it young, but don't be silly and claim you're going to be faster at 60 years old than your doppleganger who was a weekend exerciser who decided to now train hard for masters and beat your ass. Of course this is a seesaw balance situation as you decrease your masters age. Would a 40 year old dude who's been training like gangbusters since young adult, beat his 40 year old evil twin in a masters race when the latter only started training a couple years ago with the same motivation and important things on the line? That would be a harder call. I would still bet on the fresh one though. Wasn't it some kenyan who only been running for a couple years and won london marathon I think a few years back. Its not the years, its the mileage.

Also interesting...when did you start running?

Kept running 55-60mpw until I was 58..just a couple of years ago. At 54 my mom got in a bad car accident and I assumed a stressful care-taking role. Shortly thereafter, my brother imploded with a mental illness so this added to the care-taking duties.

Yes, for many, life gets in the way. Even if you never get seriously injured or burned out, life happens, be it a job, marriage, kids, family obligations, ect. I'm sincerely sorry for your ill loved ones.

Ed figured out. At 60 I am making a comeback using a variation of his training so far so good.