This is why you won't be a competitive masters guy if you run heavy miles all your life

Interesting theory. There does seem to be a loss of springiness in tendons with age.

The question is how to prevent this loss and/or how to reverse it.

Cool story bro.

The first thing would be to test the hypothesis in the same manner done with the diabetics. Here is a review discussing the findings. If anyone had the motivation and resources to do such a study as was done on the diabetics...

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/781970_2

It's from cumulative damage in ALL structures and non specific shuffling at 180 spm.

Just wow... wrote:

I've got no data to back it up...

I'm not convinced.

You start out with high mileage and aging, then shift to diabetes and peripheral neuropathy. Where is the scientific link between them.

Pros whose careers continued past age 40 provide pretty good evidence that it is not impossible to train hard during your younger years and still be a good masters runner. I would consider Meb to be "a competitive masters guy."

It requires smart training, innate durability, and a good bit of luck, but it's not impossible.

Not implying a scientific link between diabetes and running. With running, it's a different pathway to similar changes, which my guess would be, repetitive microtrauma to the tissues leading to scar tissue replacement, which is mechanically less plyable.

In my experience I have noticed the exact opposite of your theory. I worked for a summer at a hospital doing what they called MAPP (Mobile Ambulatory Patients Program) with their long term old and infirm patients. The patients that were the stiffest, least flexible, hardest to get to even stand straight, were the ones who were "immobile" for the longest.

The difference in movement capabilities was obvious and substantial - those that did the most exercise and moved the most throughout their life were the most flexible. Inactivity caused the greatest stiffness and the longer they were inactive the stiffer they were. There also seemed to be a strong correlation (self reported) that the people who were more active when they were younger remained more active when they were older.

You've got no data, and I have only general observation from a population size was only about 90 people, but, the trend was clear - exercise/movement = mobility. The longer and more active, the more mobility.

Just wow... wrote:

It's not burn out. Rather, it's that the natural pliability, springiness and recoil in your tendons and ligaments (Achilles, plantar fascia, etc.) will be shot from all the cumulative usage. You simply lose your bounce. I've got no data to back it up, but that's my hypothesis. Studies have been done on the Achilles tendons of diabetics vs. normal controls and found changes in the molecular structure of the collagen cross-links to explain such changes in diabetics, which is thought to contribute to their high rate of foot morbidity, leading to conditions like "Charcot foot" (a spontaneous collapse of the foot structure), and forefoot plantar ulcers, although the other major contributor in these situations is peripheral neuropathy.

You are definitely on to something. Although, I think it catches up later than when you become a master....more like in your 50's and 60's.

The reason I feel like there is something to your theory is I don't notice as much of a drop in performance in non-impact aerobic activities like biking, walking, rowing, air-dyne etc.. Totally anecdotal...but still feel your hypothesis is worth considering.

I'm not sure I agree with you a hundred percent with your police work there, Lou.

I think how you run the miles plays a mix as well. Diet too.

You are wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTPXhnQGp1s

meb the master wrote:

Pros whose careers continued past age 40 provide pretty good evidence that it is not impossible to train hard during your younger years and still be a good masters runner. I would consider Meb to be "a competitive masters guy."

It requires smart training, innate durability, and a good bit of luck, but it's not impossible.

Agree 100% with your assessment. Heavy mileage runners like Meb, Bill Rodgers (in his 40's and 50's), and Joan Benoit, are huge outliers. Meb's dropped off quite a bit in the past year or two, although this is multifactorial, including other aging processes, I'm sure. A study showed that 52% of former elite male distance runners sampled suffered from Achilles tendinopathy (degenerative). That might not mean anything related, but it is an interesting statistic.

No, you are wrong. Derek Turnbull took up running in his early 40s, therefore he is not the the type of master's athlete I am discussing.

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=derek+turnbull

Here's the reference.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derek_Turnbull

Tim Noakes gives essentially your hypothesis in The Lore Of Running although if I remember correctly he attributed it to both loss of elasticity and more general burnout. In any case it does seem to be a thing that age-group record holders (40 is nearly prime, say over 50) weren't doing world class training in their prime.

I generally like the idea but a few things confuse me, for example the role of stiffness of tendons. My understanding is that stiffness is actually a good thing because it leads to higher energy return and that a lot of the economy gains that come with training have do to increasing the stiffness of the leg. I'm confused by the diabetes reference. Is it only as an example of how one can measure tendon health?

My counter hypothesis regards motivation. Take Frank Shorter as an example. He'll be 70 this year and IMO would be a good candidate to go after Ed Whitlock's 2:55 over-70 marathon record but I imagine it is very hard for someone who once ran 2:10 to get excited about the prospect of training 100mpw to barely break 3 hours.

The link between diabetes and chronic mileage is diet: high intake of carbohydrates leads to Advanced Glycative Endproducts (AGE) which lead to degenerative inflammation and cross-linking.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2996922/

The solution: slow down your running to avoid excessive glycolysis and eat low-carb high-fat. Anyone who does this for a year will feel completely regenerated (although of course aging can't be beat; it can however be held off).

http://www.thelivinlowcarbshow.com/shownotes/5670/532-dr-jaime-uribarri-warns-of-disease-making-advanced-glycation-end-products-ages/

Interesting stuff. I ran a lot and raced when younger,couple a 100 mile weeks/marathons, recently struggling(age66) after a hard run due to stiffness. Degenerative arthritis in back the MRI says. Spondylosis apparently is normal but I think athletes who pushed limits, esp. In contact sports, pay a price.