Short sprints on weight days?

Anyone want to talk about running on this website?

yes, and jumping rope between lifts and doing jumps between lifts, people have thought of it all and done it all. The weight lifting warm-up is the warm-up for the running and jumping plus you start every new exercise with a warm-up set. Start at less than full sprint first rep to make sure everything is moving well. go harder each rep. same with the box jumps start low and easy and go higher each set. I think in the old days this kind of stuff was called a circuit.

Dumbledore wrote:

yes, and jumping rope between lifts and doing jumps between lifts, people have thought of it all and done it all. The weight lifting warm-up is the warm-up for the running and jumping plus you start every new exercise with a warm-up set. Start at less than full sprint first rep to make sure everything is moving well. go harder each rep. same with the box jumps start low and easy and go higher each set. I think in the old days this kind of stuff was called a circuit.

Thanks, I mean instead of doing leg weights, say squats, perform intense short sprints instead. Maybe even with a weight vest.

Just seems more relevant to running than squats or cleans.

Middle94 wrote:

Dumbledore wrote:

yes, and jumping rope between lifts and doing jumps between lifts, people have thought of it all and done it all. The weight lifting warm-up is the warm-up for the running and jumping plus you start every new exercise with a warm-up set. Start at less than full sprint first rep to make sure everything is moving well. go harder each rep. same with the box jumps start low and easy and go higher each set. I think in the old days this kind of stuff was called a circuit.

Thanks, I mean instead of doing leg weights, say squats, perform intense short sprints instead. Maybe even with a weight vest.

Just seems more relevant to running than squats or cleans.

If what you want is relevance to running, just run.

Look up French contrast training

Severus Snape wrote:

Middle94 wrote:

Thanks, I mean instead of doing leg weights, say squats, perform intense short sprints instead. Maybe even with a weight vest.

Just seems more relevant to running than squats or cleans.

If what you want is relevance to running, just run.

I fully agree, so rather than lift weights to get stronger and hope that translates to faster, why not do hard accelerations instead? I'm sure your strength, muscle tone and speed will increase?

This is precisely not what the OP was asking. Circuits as you described do not allow for sufficient rest between sets, thus adding an aerobic component to the training. For pure speedwork there should be plenty of rest between sets (e.g. 5 minutes). To answer question of OP, I have at times replaced a heavy leg day with 30-60m sprint reps (5m rest) or very short hill reps.

Middle94 wrote:

Speedwork seems to be something that middle distance athletes and some distance athletes add in as 100m reps or strides at the end of a workout or instead of a quality day of middle distance specific training.

My question is this: has anyone rethought the process and added very short (30m) explosive sprints with plenty of recovery in place of or alongside a weight lifting session. If they are short and explosive enough they should achieve the same effects as other gym exercises whilst being very specific to running.

Thoughts?

Yes. There are probably a good amount of coaches that do that. I did that when I was coaching, and I learned it from other coaches who did the same.

Of course, there are also other coaches who don't. If I had to guess, in my area, I know at least 2-3 of the 17 schools include something like this in their training, while I'm pretty sure that at least 4-5 do not. Unsure about the other programs to comment.

OP, some elite 800m runners do incorporate short explosive sprints into training. For example, Nick Symmonds' group does this, as well as some other groups.

Some other groups seem to not include this sort of training.

At any rate, it doesn't have the same stimulus as weight training. Heavy weights are intended to increase maximum muscle contraction force. Short sprints and plyos are used to decrease the time it takes muscles to reach maximum contraction force.

Of course if you add short sprints into a program that doesn't have any weights, it will probably still help to increase your maximum contraction force, but not as much as heavy weights will do.

Of course, whether specifically targeting maximum muscle contraction in the middle distances is better than spending that energy on different training is definitely debatable. It is even debatable in the sprints (a small number of elite sprinters don't lift at all).

I'm inclined to include weights for more speed based 800m runners during the off seaso along with limited maximum velocity work, phasing out the weights and phasing in plyos as the season progresses. For more aerobically based 800m runners, I wouldn't include weights and would not emphasize speed quite as much, instead emphasizing speed endurance more with these athletes.

Ex phys. research shows that stuff like this as well as short 8-10 second hill runs can be beneficial to economy (which is linked to performance in pretty much any distance running event above 800). I don't think enough distance coaches touch on that raw, all out speed type of training. Seems to be a neuromuscular benefit to be gained from it though...

I've also read some stuff in the past from I think Halie G or Kenny B where they would implement some all out 60 meter sprints after an easy run to work on fiber recruitment and force development. If you never recruit those fibers in training it's gonna be pretty hard to get them to work for you when you're trying to turn it on coming off the final bend..

Sprinter Type wrote:

This is precisely not what the OP was asking. Circuits as you described do not allow for sufficient rest between sets, thus adding an aerobic component to the training. For pure speedwork there should be plenty of rest between sets (e.g. 5 minutes). To answer question of OP, I have at times replaced a heavy leg day with 30-60m sprint reps (5m rest) or very short hill reps.

Does it work well? Did you feel a great benefit from this session?

Also, critically, the reason most mid level runners such as myself have at least a day between running sessions is to recover for the next one. Did you find these sprints inhibited you any more than a leg day in the gym?

Thanks, this is very informative.

My main aim was to improve my 400m speed in a way that carries over to my 800m and 1500m.

I feel that heavy weights are a bit irrelevant to middle distance running. I see their theoretical merits, but I have never had much success with them actually improving my speed, more just improving injury resistance (with high reps).

My 400m was likely around 50.5 when I was at my best 800m ability, and I felt a distinct lack of power and acceleration when running that event. I only ever actually ran 51 but I never cared to race the 400m, I only did it as a half-hearted favour for my local club at meets.

When I tried to improve upon this feeling of an inability to accelerate well, I turned to heavy leg press, squats etc but found them to not actually remedy the problem at all.

Shortest reps I did at the time were 150m reps but they didn't hit the spot either.

I want to try and do something different this year.

For me, personally, I found that these sessions were better for recovery than heavy gym work (after which I would often get sore). Also, I did find that the 'speed sessions' had a more measurable speed benefit, whereas in my experience heavy lifting generally takes longer time to manifest as improved speed.

One thing I have also tried is to do both the gym and the sprint sessions on the same day (AM, PM) - this did not work at all for me, as I could not recover sufficiently for subsequent workouts. To each his own, I guess.

Running with a weight vest is asking to get injured. Instead, do short, steep hill repeats.

My college coach had us do 30m,40m,50m,60m,70m,80m,90m sprints after lifting. Walk back recovery next day I was sore! Objective is to hold your form when you're tired.

Middle94 wrote:

Speedwork seems to be something that middle distance athletes and some distance athletes add in as 100m reps or strides at the end of a workout or instead of a quality day of middle distance specific training.

My question is this: has anyone rethought the process and added very short (30m) explosive sprints with plenty of recovery in place of or alongside a weight lifting session. If they are short and explosive enough they should achieve the same effects as other gym exercises whilst being very specific to running.

Thoughts?

Have you seen this thread?

5x60m w/ full recovery:

St. Ignatius of Antioch wrote:

Middle94 wrote:

Speedwork seems to be something that middle distance athletes and some distance athletes add in as 100m reps or strides at the end of a workout or instead of a quality day of middle distance specific training.

My question is this: has anyone rethought the process and added very short (30m) explosive sprints with plenty of recovery in place of or alongside a weight lifting session. If they are short and explosive enough they should achieve the same effects as other gym exercises whilst being very specific to running.

Thoughts?

Have you seen this thread?

5x60m w/ full recovery:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=7836514

Cheers, good thread.

I think 60m might actually be a little 'long' lol.

I've seen a lot of speed and form development from 80m hill sprints with full recovery followed by heavy squats, Romanian deadlift, and calf raises.

My form has gone from shuffling to very full range of motion, my heels almost clip my butt when I start running mile pace or faster.

Middle94 wrote:

Cheers, good thread.

I think 60m might actually be a little 'long' lol.

If it doesn't come across as emphasized enough in that thread (which is a very good one), one of the key tenets of advanced training is to pair those short, hard sprints with heavy, challenging lifts like squat/deadlift, and olympic lifts.

These short sprint sessions can be paired with other elements, but I wouldn't go too far with it. The most common strategy is doing them before a modest tempo workout, or the day before a tempo session.

What were the parameters of your lifting in the past, when you felt like it wasn't beneficial to your running?