5x60m w/ full recovery

Uphill? Yes.

It could be a useful workout, but for a 1500m guy I'd do something like 3x5x60m with short rest (something like a walk back to the start) and a longer rest between the series. It could help because it would let you better your basic speed and so the times you run in every distance from 100m upwards. But if you don't run at least 400s I can't see the point of doing a workout that short (only 5 reps).

Your coach wants you to improve your absolute speed. I suspect after improving your speed the next step will be improving your 400 and your speed reserve.

gimmesomeadvice wrote:

So my coach has told me to do this workout over the weekend, said it will help me improve my 1500m. Is that true? I'm having a hard time believing something so short will help me, will it improve my speed or something?

Yes, and doing those uphill it would be more effective for your acceleration and spesific power. After you get used to the short sprints, you could add in some longer (100-200´s) relaxed sprints for anaerobic capacity, with 3-5´ recovery. How much and often you need the latter depends, how weak/strong your an.cap. is for the 1500.

Yes, it will help your 1500. It's usually not a bad idea to actually *talk* with your coach, so s/he can explain how the training will help.

To some of the previous posters: the OP's coach most likely has the best idea about the OP's individual situation, and s/he thinks that starting with 5 x 60 is best for the OP. I'd suggest we respect that.

My two "footnotes" for the OP would be

1) to get a full sprint-specific warmup first (but the OP probably already plans on that), and

2) if you're going to do these outside, it might be slightly preferable to do them with the wind at your back. But your coach may have an idea about that, too.

Sasuke wrote:

It could be a useful workout, but for a 1500m guy I'd do something like 3x5x60m with short rest (something like a walk back to the start) and a longer rest between the series. It could help because it would let you better your basic speed and so the times you run in every distance from 100m upwards. But if you don't run at least 400s I can't see the point of doing a workout that short (only 5 reps).

The 5x60m workout, if done with generous rests (roughly 4 minutes or more), is neither aerobic nor anaerobic; it is alactic or analactic and almost certainly designed to develop pure speed. Whereas the 3x5x60m workout with briefer rests is anaerobic.

I think the 5x60m work will stimulate things that are very, very often neglected in the training of middle and long distance runners; the 3x5x60m, not so much.

Immmmmm is spot on. This is a workout to harvest some raw speed fibers that you probably won't recruit any other way. There is also a big neurological component and getting the body to move a top speed can help a lot of areas. Do this same workout once a week for 3-4 weeks and you should notice a big difference. 3x5x60 isn't really possible at true "top speed". You've got to take long breaks for this workout to be effective.

Sasuke wrote:

It could be a useful workout, but for a 1500m guy I'd do something like 3x5x60m with short rest (something like a walk back to the start) and a longer rest between the series. It could help because it would let you better your basic speed and so the times you run in every distance from 100m upwards. But if you don't run at least 400s I can't see the point of doing a workout that short (only 5 reps).

Sound like you know a lot but you don't yet know theory about improving max speed. 5 x 60 with full recovery is good, and then later you extend the distance. And hills are very useful.

"Base training" should include aerobic foundation and also development of max speed.

You're getting a lot of good feedback here. I'm going to include a post that I made in another thread yesterday that elaborates on the application of top end speed work and how it progresses into more "functional" speed.

But I am a firm believer that doing pure speed development is an integral part of training that a lot of systems lack. I think the volumes you are using with 5x60m are slightly low (I like being between 400-500m of total volume for most speed development), but its hardly a deal breaker.

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When you are trying to build speed you need to be very specific. In this case that means hitting top speed for a short amount of time but doing it several times in a workout. This usually involves what we call “alactic” sprints; sprints that don’t produce lactic acid. Keep these under 80m in distance to stay in that zone.

0-40m: we would consider this acceleration. It is still alactic but is too short to build up top speed since we never really hit top speed except possibly once we hit the 40m mark.

40-80m: Here you will hit top speed but not go so long that you begin to slow down again. As you get close to the 80m mark you will probably be slowing down a small amount unless you are a very elite athlete.

It’s amazing how much coordination is needed to properly run at top speed for anything more than 3 seconds, in fact you will nearly always be slowing down by then.

This high coordinative demand coupled with the depletion of the P-Cr system (creatine phosphate) we want to make the recoveries fairly long (at least 2 minutes but I lean toward 3 or more). Keep in mind the only goal here is to run fast, the recoveries will feel long but cutting them short doesn’t make a better workout, it just makes it less efficient at building top speed.

Since none of this involves the production of lactic acid (and by extension won’t lower your blood pH) it is a fairly easy workout to add to a program. You will likely be sore the first few times doing these but you can nearly always add these the day before a workout without any problems.

For a distance runner I would keep the volume between 400-600m, going over can overload your nervous system which takes a while to recover from if you do it too often. I’ll include some examples/progressions below that work from acceleration toward top speed (my suggested way to move through a season):

2 sets 5x40m with 2:30 recovery, 5 minutes between sets

2 sets 6x40m with 2:30 recovery, 5 minutes between sets

2 sets 5x50m with 3:00 recovery, 5 minutes between sets

4x60m with 3:00 recovery + 4x50m with 3:00 recovery, 5 minutes between sets

2 sets 4x60m with 3:00 recovery, 5 minutes between sets

3x80m with 3:00 recovery + 4x60m with 3:00 recovery, 5 minutes between sets

6x80m with 4:00 recovery

Short hill sprints can also help build acceleration. Downhill sprints work what we call over-speed training. I like using short hill sprints following similar layouts but with lower rep volume (40-60m). The hill forces you into acceleration mechanics but provides extra resistance. So while they say hills are, “speedwork in disguise,” I mostly agree, but I’d call it acceleration.

After you have established your speed (absolute speed) you can start working into anaerobic capacity. These usually fall between 80-150m. This work is intense for sprinters but distance runners tend to handle it without much trouble. I would keep the total volume here around 1200m for most situations but +/-200m is probably fair. Again keep the recoveries long to keep the quality of work high. You will have plenty of workouts down the line that test your lactate tolerance, these are just to convert your absolute speed into something more functional.

I know Run with the Best (Irv Ray and Tony Benson) call it anaerobic power and like using 10x100m with 300m jog recovery. They aim for the 100’s to be at the same pace as your fastest 100m segment in a goal 400m pace. So for a guy trying to run 50.0 his second 100m segment is likely to be around 12.1-12.2 so you’d want to hit those hundreds around that ballpark. Personally I always just tried to hit them as fast as possible without slowing down on any of the later reps.

Anaerobic Capacity/Power workouts, at least where you are with training, should probably be followed by an easier day in most cases. Things like 8x150m do get pretty intense so give yourself the time to recover.

I hope that helps out. Best of luck on the season

What could be done immediately (within minutes) after such a workout: Would a short tempo be too much? Or might easy mileage be better? Or maybe some longer but not too strenuous hill efforts? I would love to here your opinion. Thanks.

Immmmmm wrote:

What could be done immediately (within minutes) after such a workout: Would a short tempo be too much? Or might easy mileage be better? Or maybe some longer but not too strenuous hill efforts? I would love to here your opinion. Thanks.

That's a great question. I would make that entire day revolve around speed/power. So a normal speed development day might include:

Warm-up:

2-3 mile jog as a warm-up

hurdle mobility

Dynamic stretching

short accelerations to ease into doing intense sprints

Workout:

2x4x60m with 3 minutes between reps, 5-6 minutes between sets

Supplemental work:

plyometrics (these progress over the course of a season something like this: in place jumps, short bounds, long bounds, hurdle hops, depth jumps)

Lifting (these include anything from static lifts like squats, dead lifts, romanian deadlifts, etc which work on absolute strength but can and should also include the Olympic lifts (provided you have a very good instructor for them) which are cleans, hang cleans, snatches, etc.)

Cool-down: 2-4 miles

When you do a workout you need specificity. Doing a workout like this doesn't feel draining which, as distance runners, makes us feel like we aren't doing enough. But our bodies are easily confused, if you tell it "I want you to be fast and explosive" but then come back after that workout and do a tempo what you're really saying is "on second thought you should really try to have good lactate threshold." Let the workout send a very clear message to your body that you want it to be fast.

After you do these workouts 2-3 times you'll stop getting very sore from them, at that point you can easily put these sessions the day before a hard workout and won't have any problems as long as they aren't too similar (you don't want to hit the same energy system too hard back to back). So doing a solid tempo run the next day makes a good workout pairing without sending mixed signals.

I know some people who will do these sessions as a double, I still would rather make it a low mileage day but emphasize the supplemental work because they all support the same message very well. A coach much smarter than myself has gone as far as saying that someone running high mileage shouldn't add more than 5 miles after the workout even if they need to hit a high mileage week. Not many things are less speed based than 5 miles running aerobically right after doing speed development.

A very good post.

I often combined the short,

U.N.O. wrote:

A very good post.

I often combined the short,

U.N.O., Would you mind reposting that? It looks like your message may have been cut-off and I'm definitely be curious to hear what you normally include with speed development.

Oops, it (computer) did it again.

Was going to say that I often combined the short, ~50m hill sprints (acceleration) and the 60-80m sprints (maximum speed) on flat ground. The session was something like (after w/u and drills) 5x50m uphill relaxed accelerations / 1min jog down and then 4-5x50m uphill sprints / 3´rec / 6min rec + 3-4x 60-80m maximum speed sprints / 3´rec.

It was very refreshing to read your post, it was well written and detailed, and used the terms like anaerobic capacity etc. correctly. I totally agree with "After you have established your speed (absolute speed) you can start working into anaerobic capacity. These usually fall between 80-150m." So thank you!

Thank you U.N.O., I appreciate it.

I usually combine acceleration and speed development more when we are first introducing top speed but don't do it much after. What I've been doing more recently is periodizing acceleration and speed development a little more than I used to.

3 cycles of short, steep hill sprints (acceleration)

3 cycles of 40-60m sprints (start of top speed)

3 cycles of short, gradual hill sprints (acceleration)

3 cycles of 60-80m sprints (top end speed)

This usually brings us to the last 2-3 weeks of cross country where I prefer to back off until post season ends. In track we will usually focus more on top speed and by that time anaerobic capacity and eventually speed endurance are added to our cycles.

Have you noticed any differences from mixing hills and top speed in the same session? Also, any preference on starting with steep or shallow hills to start out/end with? I remember seeing your postings from the Sub 1:50 (OldsSub4) days so I'd love to hear your thoughts on it. I like the idea of the period shifts just to give athletes a clear cut line to provide a new stimulus but I'm always looking for something new and better out there.

Thank you. You´re right, combining the hill/flat sprints isn´t optimal to develop the acceleration or maximum speed. I did it to save time, but I also felt almost like flying after the hill sprints. My muscles were throhoughly warmed up and the neuromuscular system ready to go fast on flat. And I thought that the weekly top speed sprints frequency was enough among with other training. It´s also good to get the legs moving fast after the hills.

Sometimes I did the longer more relaxed (an. capacity) sprints too in the same week, but normally varying those week by week. Even tried to combine them in the same session, but I felt that was a bit too hard to really push both, needed too much compromises.

The hill sprints could gradually get more steep in a ideal situation, but if there´s only one hill it is fine enough for a MD / distance runner, I think. Just increasing the length of the sprints and/or total volume over time.

It´s true that trying to push one particular aspect / quality better you really have to use thorough periodization and put the emphasis on that, and the other things to "maintenance mode", especially with experienced runners.

We do things like this except we keep it to 3 reps. Full recovery. Point is to be fast and hit max v...not to be tired. Sometimes distance types struggle with this concept because they are familiar with metabolic fatigue and not neural fatigue.

I agree with you on that but I have a couple of objections:

1. Does a 1500 guy really need to work on his very top speed? I could agree if we have an 800m guy who also run 400s but a 1500 runner?

2. Is it worth for a MD guy to devote a whole day to a workout like this? Should he do something like a tempo after? 10x200 rec 1' quite easy for example?

Here it depends on his level and number of training days. If he trains something like thrice or four times a week he could just add a session. But if he already trains 6 or more times a week it could be troublesome. Should he sacrifice a easy run?

3. Can he train indoor during winter season? Otherwise sprinting at full speed could be even dangerous injury-wise.

Sasuke wrote:

I agree with you on that but I have a couple of objections:

1. Does a 1500 guy really need to work on his very top speed? I could agree if we have an 800m guy who also run 400s but a 1500 runner?

2. Is it worth for a MD guy to devote a whole day to a workout like this? Should he do something like a tempo after? 10x200 rec 1' quite easy for example?

Here it depends on his level and number of training days. If he trains something like thrice or four times a week he could just add a session. But if he already trains 6 or more times a week it could be troublesome. Should he sacrifice a easy run?

3. Can he train indoor during winter season? Otherwise sprinting at full speed could be even dangerous injury-wise.

I think these are all good points. I'll try to give my take on them as best I can.

1. I think a 1500m runner still needs to work on this. In fact I'd argue that anyone who touches the track should. Working on top end speed develops a few things that can't otherwise be achieved (or at least not as efficiently or specifically), the big one is the ability to recruit so many muscle fibers and to recruit them in a very running specific way. We lift and get this but nearly all of the research shows that even doing different ranges of motion in a lift only greatly affect the specific range of motion being used (ie. full squats don't do much to improve your quarter squats and vice-versa). How transferable then would lifts be to running compared to pure speed development? We are also recruiting muscle fibers faster here than in any other mode of training save for possibly assisted runs (downhill or with bungees comes to mind).

I also am a firm believer in the idea of Speed Reserve. This basically says that the closer you have to run to your top speed the more difficult it is. We've all read a million articles saying "you have the speed to run a world record in event X, you just need to build up your endurance enough to run it longer" (I'm looking at you Runner's World). I'm sure most people recognize that this is reductio ad absurdum but it pushes paper and I still see enough people subscribe to the idea and miss out on big portions of training on the alactic and anaerobic ends. If you have a guy who runs a 60s 400m would you ever tell him that he's ready to run 2:00 in the 800m right now? What if he ran a 56 in the 400m? In the first example he has to run his PR twice with no recovery. His best 100m is probably around a 13.5, he has to run within 1.5 seconds of his 100m PR 8 times, that isn't easy. With the 56 we see a better situation but again, he's running very close to his 400m PR (a 2:00 probably is splitting 58.5, 61.5) so again this is a tall order. But if you look at someone who has well developed speed (52 or faster for a HS male) then 2:00 isn't a huge barrier, that opening 58.5 isn't going to make this kid feel like he's going to redline until 600m hits because he can feel so much more relaxed going through 5.5 seconds slower than his PR through 400m.

I really like this question by the way, I think its something everyone asks when they first hear about it so I've thought bout it a bit. The last thing I'll mention is how we think about "talented" runners. When we say talent most of the time people seem to mean that they are just very fast. You watch a HS race with 10 guys all running around 4:10-4:12 in the mile I will always bet on the guy who has 48.x second speed even if there are other guys with comparably good 2 mile or 5k times. That's possibly a personal preference but 48s in the 400m is a very high ceiling that lets them already have the speed/power to compete at some very high levels.

2. Yes I would devote a full day to this, and the last part of your question is the way I would do it. These days, while intense, are very easy to work into a schedule. I nearly always place these the day before a workout (usually a longer workout like a tempo, VO2max, Long Run, etc.) because the energy systems are sufficiently different and the only next day effects are usually soreness. A very basic 7 day outline in your base phase might look something like this:

Monday- VO2max

Tuesday- aerobic run (mileage)

Wednesday- Speed Development

Thursday- Lactate Threshold

Friday- aerobic run (mileage)

Saturday- Long run

Sunday- off

(I don't think 7 days is enough to fit everything in so the runner that you mentioned training 6 days a week should lengthen their cycle to accommodate everything, but that's a different soap box)

I do know programs that will do this workout as a morning workout and then do another workout later in the afternoon. As I said in a previous post I would rather let it stand on its own. I use long cycles (10-12 days) so in our base phase we usually do these kinds of workouts twice a cycle, throughout the rest of the plan its usually once a cycle. I understand when you are trying to run 80+ miles a week and don't want to have such a low mileage day as I suggest but I believe that its such a unique stimulus that transfers so well that I wouldn't want to leave it out.

3. I agree completely, having lived in the north nearly all of my life I would never do these outside on a very cold day. The recoveries alone are too long to keep you warm enough on these. We always did them in the halls of our high school or in our indoor complex in college