You can't be the motivation, that comes from within. Some kids have it, others don't.
You can make a great team environment and do everything right and it still not click. You really need the right school culture and community. You can do well but you'll always be swimming upstream.
My suggestion though, focus on track season and stop looking ahead. There's a lot to be learned from the present.
Right from Wrong wrote:
Otter:
Your last paragraph is interesting. How do you keep that kid away from the rest of the team? What have you done that works?
Basically when we form training groups the kids that are not really into it regardless of performance are in separate running groups running different routes and workouts. They don't seem to mind that either. They don't really like being around the kids that work hard. Usually these are the kids showing up late, missing practices, getting injured but somehow still able to play football before practice begins with their friends.
Some will change over time. I have witnessed some shocking transformations in either direction.
I don't believe in an "inclusion" model where if you surround one of these kids with motivated athletes to somehow turn them positive. Their attitudes take way too long to change.
I do however use positive reinforcement when they appear to be working hard. I am cordial but otherwise fairly cold to those that are lazy.
otter wrote:
Right from Wrong wrote:Otter:
Your last paragraph is interesting. How do you keep that kid away from the rest of the team? What have you done that works?
Basically when we form training groups the kids that are not really into it regardless of performance are in separate running groups running different routes and workouts. They don't seem to mind that either. They don't really like being around the kids that work hard. Usually these are the kids showing up late, missing practices, getting injured but somehow still able to play football before practice begins with their friends.
Some will change over time. I have witnessed some shocking transformations in either direction.
I don't believe in an "inclusion" model where if you surround one of these kids with motivated athletes to somehow turn them positive. Their attitudes take way too long to change.
I do however use positive reinforcement when they appear to be working hard. I am cordial but otherwise fairly cold to those that are lazy.
Yes, your time is valuable so why not spend it with kids who want it? Thank you for your answer. You must have some powerful ignoring skills!
The black hole wrote:
You can't be the motivation, that comes from within. Some kids have it, others don't.
You can make a great team environment and do everything right and it still not click. You really need the right school culture and community. You can do well but you'll always be swimming upstream.
My suggestion though, focus on track season and stop looking ahead. There's a lot to be learned from the present.
Be in the present with an eye on the future. If you do think about the past and you will, focus on the successes and the times you overcame bad situations. Most of us see the bad things that we've had happen to us or that we've created. Change the channel and see the good that you have done. Develop a mindset that sees good as becoming not only possible but probable.
Most organizations can be turned around in 5 years or less.
Father Of D1 Runner wrote:
Saline High School does a great job creating a culture where kids want to join the team, encourage other students to join, encourage winter and summer running. They have their team rules and requirements for lettering posted online. The coaches are active on social media for team events and accomplishments. Captains lead off season running sessions.
http://salinesports.org/boysxc/http://www.girlsxc.salinesports.org/The coaches at one top D1 team have the runners each write out their goals at the beginning of the season. They also ask them to write what they think they will do or are willing to do to reach that goal. The coaches review it and discuss with each athlete if the one can realistically lead to the other. They are process driven during the season. They focus on what went right in each race, what was learned, and what could be worked on at the next race. They avoid focusing on specific times and avoid focusing on negatives. They trust the process will get them to their goal.
If the high school runners do not have the desire to be the best they can be or do not enjoy running when training on their own then I am not sure how any coach get them to run in the off season. One high school coach I know could not even get his own children who were good runners to run consistently throughout the week during the off seasons. Another coach has 3 or 4 young sons who love to run. One was excited to tell me that their father allows them to run their first 5K at age 5. I asked one, probably 7 to 10 years old, how much he and his brothers ran during each week. He said they ran one day a week down their dirt road for a mile. Their father said they run around outside all the time while playing. I think his sons will still love to run when they reach high school and will want to put in the training year round. I think passing on the love of running and competing is more effective than requirements or nagging.
Apparently your last sentence was aimed at me. It appears that you are part of a program that has been successful for many years. Even in that situation you will have to talk to the kids and your best bet is to talk to them as individuals.
I suppose if you have a great program that has won for many, many years it gets easier. That's nice! But if you are coaching somewhere for the first time it might take a little more elbow grease. Nagging is not the preferred method of course and I never said to do that. However no one is perfect and I guarantee that the parents in your program aren't either.
You really are doing exactly as I would suggest. Take the time to get to know them. Meet them at their door. Talk to them individually. Why would you have to nag? I never once mentioned nagging.
Setting standards is a good idea for any program but certainly for one that has not been doing so well. Would you not have standards for a history or math class. "Oh all of you children are wonderful and I give you all A's."
Now that's stupidity.
I feel your pain. XC is a tough sell at most schools and in many cases a good percentage of the kids have no real desire or interest in running long distances.
Let's face it XC sucks!! It's difficult, it's painful, kids throw up and pass out, etc. for what? So they can finish 120th out of 200 runners or much worse? As a teenager that's humiliating and why would you want to willingly participate in this sport if you are going to finish so far out of it?
When I coached HS XC at a small private Catholic school we had a "no cut" rule and all students were expected to participate in at least one sport each year. I'd have 80 kids split between the seniors and juniors and more than half were not their because they loved XC.
Summer practices are optional and a coach is very limited in the amount of coaching that can be done during the off season.
Are you limited in the number of athletes you can take to a meet? We were limited to 10 on each team so 40 of the 80 kids on the team would go to each race and for years I tried different methods to "motivate" kids to show up for practice and none worked.
What finally worked was switching from a structured running program in the off season to a general fitness regime incorporating other sports and games. Ultimate Frisbee is hugely popular and if played at a fast pace is excellent aerobic training, swimming, cycling, rowing, dodge ball were part of the practice regime. The serious runners still ran standard structured workouts if they wanted to but they could also forego those to do the other workouts.
I thought the team performance would decline but the opposite happened suddenly all the teams were scoring higher in meets and over a period of a few years XC became more popular and we were becoming competitive.
Is this a program that will produce stars who get scholarships? Absolutely not but HS sports is about fun and participation not scholarships.
I enjoyed coaching more when kids were at practice because they wanted to have fun not because they were forced to attend,
New Coach wrote:
The state allows us one official practice per week. Not having official practice more often has nothing to do with how committed I am.
areelcoach wrote:[quote]New Coach wrote:
I can meet for an official practice once per week during the summer.
This is horsesh!t. I get 45-60 kids out "in the heat of the summer," Monday through Saturday from mid-June through the official start of the season. Coaches expect athletes to be committed when the coach themselves are not. You show up one day per week? Find a new job. That wouldn't fly in any other walk of life.
You can call it anything you want. Just don't make it mandatory. Call it a running club.
I think the best way to determine who gets a varsity letter is also the simplest: who are your top-7? Varsity races only allow 7 runners from each school, those are your varsity runners. It's no different from any other sport. If you are on the Varsity team you are a Varsity athlete and get a Varsity letter. If your team is slow and your 7th Varsity runner runs a 25:00 5K, he still gets a letter because he is better than the JV runners.
As for your other issue, I would put the minimum amount of effort into the kids who legit don't want to be there. Include them in practice, tell them what to do, make sure they don't get hurt. That's it. Focus your time and energy on the ones who want to be there.
After that, you have to offer rewards. The key with this is dangling those carrots in front of them BEFORE the summer starts. Get summer mileage shirts made early and let them see them in person so they know what is up for grabs. If one kid runs 301 miles and another runs 340, they both get a 300 mile shirt but the 340 kid gets a "highest mileage" patch or something as well. Hand out window decals with the school XC logo on them. Do anything to generate interest.
Announce that in order to be a team captain you must attend summer workouts and run X mileage. Once the season starts, bring the kids who ran the top-X mileage totals in the summer to a big college meet, and announce that surprise in front of the whole team. Don't be afraid about kids feeling left out, they need a little kick in the pants and if they care enough, they'll run the next summer.
This is more big picture stuff, not just summer, but the biggest thing with XC is creating a culture. I was fortunate to coach a track distance team that had a lot of dedicated kids on it, but I also applied a lot of things that my HS coach did that we all liked.
Start traditions. Hold a handicapped race each season where the slowest kids get a head start. We always called it the Pursuit Championships and I'd make a medal or some type of award up and it was a big deal because often times the slower kids would win and it would be the only medal they'd ever get. Have one or two Slurpee Runs (or ice cream runs or whatever) where they di an easy run to a 7-11 or ice cream place and you buy them a treat. If 40 kids are not into the team, give them that day off and only reward the kids who care.
Find some routes to practice on that can have some sort of mystique or are really tough. We had one called "Soup." It was a long run up hill and at the time there was a big decline that went into an incline (or a bowl-shaped, hence the name soup). Each group had to run a set number of bowls before returning to school. We hated it, it was hard, but at the same time we got a certain level of pride from hitting a certain number of bowls. It was just another thing to add to our team's lore, and it gave us something to make us feel strong, something the football, baseball, and basketball players had never been through.
Challenge the kids to certain milestones, whether it is X number of kids under 21:00 in the first meet, beating a rival in a dual meet, having X combined summer mileage, etc. Make the stakes high, like letting them give you whatever haircut they want for the last meet of the season or something like that.
Make it fun, the ones who like it will care more, and they will try harder. There will be ones that still don't care, and that's fine. You still give them the minimum attention necessary and focus on the others. Create a culture of fun and hard work and after a few years you'll see more dedicated runners and better performances on the course.
areelcoach wrote:
Coach G wrote:The kids that are on the team because they have to participate are write offs and you'll be lucky to get them to try during XC season so don't lose any sleep over those guys.
If you have 4 or 5 keeners and leaders you can hope that they will lead by example and inspire the borderline team members to run a bit in the summer but again these are teenagers and they will tune you out ina second if you start to nag.
Expecting kids to run in the heat of the summer depending on where you live is a losing battle. Encourage them to be active in the summer be it playing team sports, cycling and swimming, etc.
This is suppose to be fun coach and they are doing it for their own enjoyment and development NOT for yours!!
Perspective is needed here coach and I sense you have lost touch.
This is horsesh!t. I get 45-60 kids out "in the heat of the summer," Monday through Saturday from mid-June through the official start of the season. Coaches expect athletes to be committed when the coach themselves are not. You show up one day per week? Find a new job. That wouldn't fly in any other walk of life.
As for the part about showing up one day a week: some HS associations have rules governing out of season practices. So the coach might be restrained by those rules. Now, a way around that is to start a club team depending on the HS association rules (and some can be quite restrictive from what I have read).
I have not read all the responses so forgive me if there is redundancy or if something is addressed.
1) Building culture takes a while. I recommend reading materials from Wade Gilbert, a prof at Fresno State. He also has some free webinars available from Human Kinetics on building team culture. Also check out the Positive Coaching Alliance for information. You might find some things you can use.
2) It is lazy to write off the kids who do not want to be there. You never know that one of them might just become a scorer or might find they like running and will be healthier over life. I hate to see kids turned off of running at an early age.
3) I think you get your more dedicated kids to be influencers. Those might not be your fastest kids either. The movie McFarland (while taking liberties with what actually occurred) could be a good inspiration for you. He used other kids to recruit kids. Also the movie Long Green Line (is that the name of the movie about York and Coach Newton?). More for you to watch than to watch with the kids although that might not be a bad thing either.
4) Get those kids to be the organizers. Have them send the texts to everyone reminding them of the runs.
5) At the end of school, get the kids together and have THEM develop a set of expectations and goals over the summer. They should be individual and team goals/expectations and standards. They will have ownership and you increase the likelihood of compliance.
6) Make the workouts fun. Get some frisbees and play ultimate one day rather than go for a run.
7) Girls...they are amazing at getting we guys to do stuff we do not want to do like get married. So getting them to come to training runs is pretty easy.
8) Awards and recognition are good. Have some for 100% attendance. Miles are a common measure, but if you have new kid or just a kid who is slower than can be daunting. Go with minutes run as another option. Get the kids to develop their own goofy awards (keeping in mind that these should not be hurtful things). These awards could be organic: things that come up over the summer like worst sunburn or T shirt with the dumbest saying.
9) Be understanding. Running is not their job and they do not have complete control over their lives. Families are going to take trips or have to go to other kids' events. Kids may end up in a situation where they just cannot get to the run because of transportation issues. (Now you can help if you make sure everyone has everyone else's number especially for those kids with cars or reliable transportation).
10) Some kids may play other sports in the summer. I think this is a good thing on a few levels. If they are playing in a summer soccer league they are staying fit.
Those are off the top of my head.
Coaching HS Hell wrote:
SNIPPED
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Is this a program that will produce stars who get scholarships? Absolutely not but HS sports is about fun and participation not scholarships.
I enjoyed coaching more when kids were at practice because they wanted to have fun not because they were forced to attend,
WHAT? High school sports about fun and participation? You must some left wing liberal commie! No wonder this country is in such a mess!
(Awesome to see that sentiment expressed).
areelcoach wrote:
Coach G wrote:The kids that are on the team because they have to participate are write offs and you'll be lucky to get them to try during XC season so don't lose any sleep over those guys.
If you have 4 or 5 keeners and leaders you can hope that they will lead by example and inspire the borderline team members to run a bit in the summer but again these are teenagers and they will tune you out ina second if you start to nag.
Expecting kids to run in the heat of the summer depending on where you live is a losing battle. Encourage them to be active in the summer be it playing team sports, cycling and swimming, etc.
This is suppose to be fun coach and they are doing it for their own enjoyment and development NOT for yours!!
Perspective is needed here coach and I sense you have lost touch.
This is horsesh!t. I get 45-60 kids out "in the heat of the summer," Monday through Saturday from mid-June through the official start of the season. Coaches expect athletes to be committed when the coach themselves are not. You show up one day per week? Find a new job. That wouldn't fly in any other walk of life.
You sound real special. But what about them?
Its high school. The runners will run. The reset should enjoy the experience. So what if they suffer in the fall. That's part of the experience.
Never seen so many humorless prigs who think its all about them. If you are inspirational enough, and they can see the benefit to give their all, they will.
Like others have said about the Varsity Lettering requirements, I'd make them have a few different criteria.
Basic tier is Varsity meet participation: over 50% of Varsity meets run equals a letter
Winning a JV meet = a Varsity letter (this sounds like a funny incentive but for the JV kids, if/when you have a kid win a JV meet, he's going to end up on Varsity anyways).
Time qualifier that is way faster than 20 minutes. Something like 18:00 minutes or faster. Back in the 90's my high school had a time cutoff of something like 17:30-17:50 (can't remember exactly).
My personal thoughts are you would want to be able to letter somewhere between 7 and 12 or so athletes per season. I don't know if a Varsity letter is as big of an incentive to kids as it was back when I ran but I know kids that could letter at my school that could never quite crack the top 7 sure provided us with some extra depth just in case.
I'm high school we would go to a xc camp about two weeks before the season started. It was our peak mileage "hell week." The top runners would double everyday could hit 70+ miles for the week.
Nobody wanted to be the one kid who would drop back during easy runs or not able to partake in the volleyball game or other fun activities because he was sore as hell from being out of shape.
It also served as a team bonding experience because everyone had to live together for a week.
I'm not sure I have a good answer about how to do this but I think the key is friendship driven for my middle schooler. I know you are talking about high school but this is working for these kids. Somehow getting it to be a fun friend driven activity seems to be the key. She And some xc team mates really bonded during the season. They've started planning their runs at a local trail and coordinated rides from parents. It's almost just an excuse to hang out. Then they go get smoothies after. Now other friends from the team want to go too. Those girls run different paces so they invited a few others to join them. So there are a couple different pace groups that go. Now a couple of the boys are starting to join them. hmmmmm. Lol. Not sure I'm happy about that but it gets everyone out there!
Their coach gave them a general schedule to follow for off season but honestly they don't really pay much attention to it. They do the 4 mile or 5 mile loop 2 to 3 times a week with no pressure or thought to their pace. So for them it's not really a mandatory thing yet but they like it.
Pay them $5/mile
T shirts are useless, kids will run if they care. It cannot be a reward system they have to want it. And with the bad kids if they're required to do a sport tell them you will kick them off if they do not consistently run.
New Coach wrote:
I have an XC team at a private school which requires sports participation. Some of the kids do not want to be out for cross country and we unfortunately get stuck with a number of kids who just don't take it seriously. I am looking for some ideas on how to get them to run during the summer. As you might imagine it is more difficult to build a team atmosphere with students who don't want to be there affecting the team chemistry. Even the top guys don't seem to understand (despite repeated, and I mean repeated, statements from me indicating this) that you have to run in the summer to realize your potential.
I can meet for an official practice once per week during the summer. I plan on strongly encouraging our top guys to attend. Beyond that I think I may do some fun "team building" type of stuff a few times in June and July (which I doubt anyone not interested in the team would show up for). I'll also require the top guys to follow up with me on their miles on a weekly basis. Kids who meet their mileage requirements will get a tshirt or something (last year no one got one!). I also plan on lowering the time required to get a varsity letter below the 20 minute mark.
Any other ideas? It can be a tough situation in some ways. I'm staggered at how little some of them seem to care/how lazy they an be for no reason other than being lazy.
This was a good post. As you can see this is a common problem. For the most part it takes care of itself once you develop a good program. This will take time and getting people to buy into what you are teaching. In addition you will have to buy into what they are teaching. That is no joke.
I disagree. No, if a kid doesn't like XC then shirts will not make him run over summer. However, for the kids that like XC but aren't quite committed enough to run over summer it can help. Think about it, on the first day of practice you publicly award their mileage shirt and only 4 earn them. Those 4 wear them 1-2 times a week at practice all season and some of the kids who care about XC but didn't run over summer will get jealous. The next summer, 1-2 more kids run in order to join the "cool kids."
Remember, you are building a culture and that takes time. After three years maybe 50% of the team trains over summer and when freshmen come in they see half the kids getting these shirts presented to them and see them throughout the season. No, it's not going to convince every kid to be more dedicated, but it can convince the ones that are on the fence. Not all 14-17 year olds "want it," when it comes to running. Sometimes they don't realize they enjoy it until they have fun, feel like part of a team, and buy into the culture.
I second #8- awards and recognition. I brought up a handicapped race earlier, it gives the slower kids a chance to win for once and get a little award.
Another thing the kids I coach do are the Paper Plate Awards. Near the end of each season the Seniors get together to make awards for each runner. They draw a picture on a paper plate and name it something based on a funny joke, story, or event related to each runner. Examples include "shortest shorts award" and "most post-race barfing award." The kids get a kick out of it and the underclassmen get to look forward to being a Senior and making the wards. It's just a silly tradition that gets passed down, but that is exactly the kinds of things XC kids love.