Doesn't Russian Doping Scandal Prove Canova is Right about EPO?

rekrunner wrote:

COUNT ALL of the records: national records, masters records, indoor records. Do what you do with numbers and COUNT them to look at these regional, national, and area records within an absolute global perspective. Draw a number line to scale, and look at the times on a scale from 1985 world record to the world record that existed at that time.

Look at the distribution of 1) non-Africans, vs. 2) North Africans vs. 3) East Africans. You will find three very different patterns, with non-Africans clustered around 1985.

Again, for this to be a valid/useful analysis to answer the question you have to be assuming that every single elite distance runner, African or Western or whoever was using EPO during the EPO era. Where is your evidence for that?

You can only look at individual cases where you know or have very good reason to believe that EPO was being used by the athlete.

It does not look like ITALY is doing that well:

http://www.sportsintegrityinitiative.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/2014-WADA-ADRV-top-ten-nationalities.png

http://www.sportsintegrityinitiative.com/russian-athletes-heavily-sanctioned-iaaf-2016/

http://www.athleticsweekly.com/featured/doping-walkealex-schwazer-eight-year-ban-48366

WOW = WOW

Alex Schwazer and Carolina Kostner visited Dr. Michele Ferrari in 2010.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/coni-seeks-bans-3-sprinters-schwazer-case-150601277--spt.html

;_ylt=A0LEVzOc4oNY8eAAa7FXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEybWhscXU2BGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwM5BHZ0aWQDQjMyMTlfMQRzZWMDc3I-

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ferrari-armstrong-could-have-reached-the-same-level-without-doping/

It is just an Italian Doping Coincidental Synchronicityâ„¢ Type: 33

O'Boy-cott (Irish)!

I did not define the assumptions of the EPO-era. For the sake of argument, I have accepted the assumptions of those who worship the EPO-era and the powerful magical effects of EPO. They say that EPO is effective, and that the use of EPO is sufficiently prevalent, and more, and I'm arguing that it produces ridiculous conclusions, as a way of challenging one or more of these assumptions. After all, EPO is often offered as the only possible explanation for the large drop of world record times during the EPO-era, despite the lack of known, or reasonable, links to EPO by most of the athletes setting them, simply because cyclists were taking EPO in large doses, at the same time.If you need evidence that runners were actually taking EPO, then we should first apply the same standard to build a case that the EPO-era, as we believe it, even existed. I don't need to debunk it if we cannot even establish it. Once that case is made, if ever, then we can resume this discussion.

Do you have amnesia?

Many national records set circa 1985 (or before) could have been set by people on a cocktail of blood doping, steriods, painkillers and stimulants. By itself in an era of out of competition testing, EPO (undetectable for a long time) by itself can not compete with the gains achieved under such a cocktail.

Just for theoretical comparison, if we compared the performance of two elite male middle distance runners. Both could run 47s for 400m, both do a similar training volume, now runner A is on EPO but runner B is on some sort of difficult to trace testosterone like androgel (to subvert the T/E ratios). There is a good chance runner B could actually beat runner A. Now if there was a runner C who had all the same genetic abilities of runner A but was completely clean, they would lose to runner A without a doubt. But if runner C started blood doping chances are they might start be on a par with runner A if not better.

The age of national records might be irrelevant, the New Zealand 800m record of (Sir) Peter Snell was set in 1962, on grass. A record that has eluded two greats, John Walker and Nick Willis. The case for the decline after 1985 was put at the switch from high volume Lydiard type-training in the mid 1980s to the rep heavy Horwill/Coe training that helps a minority of western males not the majority.

Countries like Australia, Japan, Korea and New Zealand etc that put in place strict drug testing back in the 1980s were actually at a disadvantage relative to those that didn't.

In a ruling published Wednesday, the CAS judging panel stripped Jeptoo of her 2014 win in Boston, plus results, prize and appearance money dating back to April 17, 2014. The Kenyan runner previously lost her 2014 Chicago victory.

Jeptoo had been due to earn a $500,000 bonus for leading the World Marathon Majors series standings for the combined 2013 and 2014 seasons. She won back-to-back Boston and Chicago titles in 2013.

Now 35, Jeptoo tested positive for erythropoietin, a red-blood-cell-boosting hormone, in a September 2014 sample given during training for the Chicago race.

"[It] was obvious to the panel that the athlete used EPO as part of a scheme or plan," the panel ruled, citing evidence such as her long relationship with the unidentified doctor and "multiple visits to see him"

http://www.businessdailyafrica.com/Marathon-organisers-to-recover-Sh17-5m-from-disgraced-Jeptoo/539546-3490956-tsioib/

Is Rita Jeptoo going to give the Boston Marathon the $175,000 back???

When is Rita Jeptoo going to give back ALL THE MONEY she got by taking EPO and CHEATING all the other runners in the Boston marathon race ???

For example:

1) Shalane Flanagan (Irish)

Is there an update about the MONEY that Rita Jeptoo needs to give back to the Boston marathon because she CHEATED by taking EPO?

Is there an update on Rita Jeptoo from Claudio Berardelli or Federico Rosa or Renato Canova???

I am sure that we will all wait just a short period of time for the update on Rita Jeptoo and the $175,000 she needs to give back to the Boston marathon people.

How long do you think it will take for Rita Jeptoo to give the MONEY back to the Boston marathon people???

Yeah that 175k could be used on those victims of the terrorist attack.

Do I have amnesia? I don't know. I forget.If you want to downplay the performance role EPO played in the role of track and roads, you will not get any argument from me.These arguments seem in line with my observation that the EPO-era wasn't all that great on the track, or the roads, for most of the world.I see a lot of arguments as to why EPO didn't help or couldn't have helped Russians, Australians, Japanese, Koreans, New Zealanders, etc., and why EPO is not really better than blood transfusions and drugs before it, reducing the EPO-era to just maintaining the status quo, that existed before, as advancements in doping stalled.Then it looks odd to me, to attempt point to non-African success with EPO, during the EPO-era, to support claims that EPO helped Kenyans and Ethiopians with the massive drops in world record performances.

But I'm not downplaying the impact of EPO, I'm just saying that the sport may have been so dirty that is difficult to get a clear assessment of its effectiveness, but certainly in 1995-1998 the effect of epo was staggering.

Only if it were shown to be the effects of EPO...

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

But I'm not downplaying the impact of EPO, I'm just saying that the sport may have been so dirty that is difficult to get a clear assessment of its effectiveness, but certainly in 1995-1998 the effect of epo was staggering.

rekrunner wrote:

COUNT ALL of the records: national records, masters records, indoor records. Do what you do with numbers and COUNT them to look at these regional, national, and area records within an absolute global perspective. Draw a number line to scale, and look at the times on a scale from 1985 world record to the world record that existed at that time.

Look at the distribution of 1) non-Africans, vs. 2) North Africans vs. 3) East Africans. You will find three very different patterns, with non-Africans clustered around 1985.

Did you actually do that? I'd love to see it.

Pre-1985 = all goes, incl. steroids but EPO not available vs. 1990ish - 2005 = limited steroid doping, but EPO added and basically undetectable.

Without looking at all details, I'd think 1990+ wins for the longer distances.

Example, the marathon:

Non-African, pre-1985 vs. post-1985

1985 Lopez 2:07:12 vs. 1998 da Costa 2:06:05 (?)

1985 Kristiansen 2:21:06 vs. 2003 Radcliffe 2:15:25

(I hope I didn't miss a non-African sub-2:06 runner)

As for shorter distances (not counting sprints), steroids may be more useful than EPO. For example, the 800:

Non-African, pre-1985 vs. post-1985

1981 Coe 1:41.73 still stands

1983 Kratochvílová 1:53.28 still stands

rekrunner wrote:

I see a lot of arguments as to why EPO didn't help or couldn't have helped Russians, Australians, Japanese, Koreans, New Zealanders, etc., and why EPO is not really better than blood transfusions and drugs before it, reducing the EPO-era to just maintaining the status quo, that existed before, as advancements in doping stalled.

Then it looks odd to me, to attempt point to non-African success with EPO, during the EPO-era, to support claims that EPO helped Kenyans and Ethiopians with the massive drops in world record performances.

That is not odd, because the Kenyans and Ethiopians couldn't have used steroids and blood-doping during the 80s.

There is a reason that science, such as proving or disproving that EPO works, is done with clinical studies and have standards attached to them.

Rekrunner's arguments, which ignore all sorts of confounding factors and lump together all runners as EPO users in an attempt to disprove actual clinical studies proving that EPO works, are ridiculous.

EPO works to enhance performance. This has been shown in numerous clinical studies. If he wants to claim that it does not work in some subset of the population, he should fund and/or conduct a clinical trial that tests the effects of EPO in that population.

All the rest of his blabberings are just noise.

Mr. Obvious wrote:

There is a reason that science, such as proving or disproving that EPO works, is done with clinical studies and have standards attached to them.

Rekrunner's arguments, which ignore all sorts of confounding factors and lump together all runners as EPO users in an attempt to disprove actual clinical studies proving that EPO works, are ridiculous.

EPO works to enhance performance. This has been shown in numerous clinical studies. If he wants to claim that it does not work in some subset of the population, he should fund and/or conduct a clinical trial that tests the effects of EPO in that population.

All the rest of his blabberings are just noise.

Interesting.

I have never thought about this topic in that way.

What you just said makes a lot of sense.

I am going to think about what you just said…………………..

…………………………………………………………………………………..

…………….I think that I might agree with what you just said………………

It is just a coincidence.

For example:

1) Pamela Chepchumba (managed by Federico Rosa, banned for EPO at the 2003 World XC Championships.

2) Agatha Jeruto (800m runner coached by Claudio Berardelli, managed by Federico Rosa) banned 4 years for 19-norandrosterone positive doping test (major metabolite of nandrolone.)

3) Matthew Kisorio (58:46 half marathoner coached by Claudio Berardelli, managed by Federico Rosa, banned for the anabolic steroid nandrolone, which is administered by IM injection, also talked in interview about drugs injected which increased oxygen in blood and endurance… which sounds like EPO.)

4) Rita Jeptoo (2:18:57 marathoner, coached by Claudio Berardelli, managed by Federico Rosa, banned 4 years for EPO use at Boston and Chicago marathons in 2014.)

Gabriele Rosa came from Italy. He was previously in the sport of CYCLING. He started his first training camp in Kenya in 1991. Federico Rosa came to Kenya in 1996. Claudio Berardelli came to Kenya in 2004. Today they have 5 training camps in Kenya.

It is just a coincidence.

It looks like the "common practice by doctors in Kenya to use EPO to treat the anemia that is associated with malaria" is about to change:

http://japanrunningnews.blogspot.com/2016/04/special-session-to-decide-tomorrow.html

rojo said:

So doctors and scientists, is this true? Might someone be given EPO for malaria?

I'd love to know the answer to this question. If not, how do you explain the proof he provided?

Read more:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=7177186#ixzz4WXATkeWI

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/kenyas-dennis-kimetto-wins-chicago-145430963--spt.html

;_ylt=AwrBTzZfN4VYAKYAWDxXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEyNGxzdnZ1BGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMyBHZ0aWQDQjMyMTlfMQRzZWMDc3I-

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/athletics/news/article.cfm?c_id=19&objectid=11783465

It is just a coincidence.

Jemima Sumgong thinks that is a good idea.

Jemima Sumgong is the 2016 Olympic Gold Medalist in the marathon.

Jemima Sumgong was also in the training group of Claudio Berardelli with Priscah Jeptoo and Rita Jeptoo. She is managed by Federico Rosa.

http://www.runnersworld.com/newswire/ban-on-boston-marathon-runner-up-is-lifted

It is just a coincidence.

OK???

"A letter from IAAF anti-doping administrator Gabriel Dolle declares, "The IAAF considers that there should not have been any sanctions against the athlete and in addition, Jelagat declared the treatment she had received on the doping control form on the same day of the test at Boston."

And Dolle is/was under investigation for taking bribes/extorting money

Billy Fap wrote:

And Dolle is/was under investigation for taking bribes/extorting money

Dolle was suspended for 5 years. There is no more current investigation because he was already found guilty.

rjm33 wrote:

It is just a coincidence.

Well, let me remind you of this: according to Canova, coaches know whether their athletes are clean.

I tend to believe him there, as otherwise their performances would be quite erratic, depending on where they are on the cycle.