Kid Runs Great in Practice, Bad in Meets. HELP!!!

if he's a slow twitch endurance guy lots of fast stuff too close to 3-5k effort may flatten him and he'll do worse.

a little bit more fast stuff for a couple weeks to make race pace feel easier may help his confidence. wouldn't do more race pace work on top of racing if only a couple weeks less. try straights and curves as a workout. can be a real burner without too much volume.

a big taper may be what he needs as poor racing may be because of leaving too much in training.

positive self talk, solid and specific personal goals, a key word or two to focus on while doing a hard effort (rather than thinking about guys passing him) will help with mental battle. well, in the long run, 2 weeks might be hard to get it to stick if he's been negative all season or longer. good to work on though.

This makes no sense to me:

"I plan on tapering for the rest of the season by cutting the milage by 40-50%" WHY?

Also, tell Runner A to stop being a workout champion.

He's been doing a lot of miles over the summer and in the beginning of this season. Brought his milage down to about 45 or so for the last moth and now thinking of having him and everyone stay right around 30-35, or about half of what he was doing in the summer/ beginning of the season. Was told this was the way the was to go in my USATF class this summer and it worked pretty well for me in college too. Is this not the case or is there anything better?

so in 1st reply i didn't realize you already cut his mileage. as a responder to cranking out the miles as a slow twitcher myself, i've found consistent year round mileage much easier to handle. i'll taper for a few days (up to a week) before a key 5k, but that's about it. bit longer taper for longer races.

although it sounds like he's good at grinding it out, that type of training can also dig a big hole. so another taper now is worth a try.

the short response poster said it best, don't be a workout warrior.

Thanks. It's tough to tell him to slow down in workouts cause he looks so relaxed and in control. I hoping this taper will do him some good though. Thanks for the input on the 3-5k effort stuff. I'll have them do some speed work, but definitely won't over do it this late in the season.

Try a workout which is a 5km time trial and see how he does.

He may be what is known as a mag vag.

You are not the coach. You are Runner A. Please stop pretending.

MTownRunr7 wrote:

I have a guy on my team, we'll call him "Runner A", who should be my no. 1 by a lot. He not top end fast, but knows more about running than my other guys, puts in more miles, and does the best in workouts.

Runner A says it's mental, how can I help him in that regard? I know this guy can run 17:00 and thats the goal, any chance of me getting him there by Oct. 30th with a taper?

"You" are not getting him there by Oct. 30. "You" are getting yourself there by Oct 30. Unless you are the mouse in his pocket.

MTownRunr7 wrote:

Thanks. It's tough to tell him to slow down in workouts cause he looks so relaxed and in control. I hoping this taper will do him some good though. Thanks for the input on the 3-5k effort stuff. I'll have them do some speed work, but definitely won't over do it this late in the season.

tell him to run with other guys on the team, if it feels easy, so be it.

What are his general mile and 2 mile splits in a race where he runs 18:00?

This information will be very helpful.

could be a combination of these things:

he is running his workouts harder than the other two guys

are the workouts on track or road? Add 10 sec per mile for grass

his workouts suggest close to 17 flat- but if he is training on track or road, and the 5k course is a little long- and he is racing his workouts and going out too fast in his races, then that could explain the whole variance between the "predicted" 17:03 and actual 18:0x.

In addition to your other ideas- consider his pacing, and make sure he doesn't go out too fast, if you didn't already do this.

I'm actually not "Runner A". I am in fact the coach. His mile splits in races are high 5:30's and then high 11:40's(second mile is always rough for him) Sometimes he can take the fist half mile or so out too fast, but his first mile is never under 5:30. Workouts are on roads and track. I've tried to work on pacing with him. Based on his workouts I tell him to just hold mid 5:30's, but he cant seem to do it. Might start having him slow down on the workouts and take the first mile in races out slower.

You might be working him way too hard. Have him do slightly easier sessions for a couple weeks and see how he goes.

MTownRunr7 wrote:

I'm actually not "Runner A". I am in fact the coach. His mile splits in races are high 5:30's and then high 11:40's(second mile is always rough for him) Sometimes he can take the fist half mile or so out too fast, but his first mile is never under 5:30.

If he is running a 6:10 2nd mile, then his first mile is too fast. I see two problems. Running on grass is not the same as roads or track so you are overestimating the pace he should be running. The second problem I see a lot is a lack of warm up.

Since he is coming back with a faster 3rd mile, I don't think being overworked is the problem.

I would do a little more warm up like 2 extra 400s at race pace starting 15 minutes before the start. I would then have him go out a little slower (maybe with another teammate who generally runs closer to 5:45-5:50) and then see how many runners he can pass the 2nd mile. After that, he can run the 3rd mile hard like he usually does.

I mean this in the nicest way possible, runner A is a world class wuss.

A couple possibilities in no specific order

1. You are overestimating his fitness

2. He psyches himself out during race day and cracks under pressure

3. His race strategy is not good, potentially he is going out too fast and doesn't react well when people pass him. Each runner is different, but if this is the case he may do better if he goes out slow and passes people the whole 2nd half of the race. Helps increase confidence for some runners

4. He is leaving his races in practice

5. His mileage coming down earlier in the season inhibited an early peak and he can get by on workouts with rest but in a race with no rest he's toast..

If he actually looks that relaxed in workouts I'm willing to bet it's more psychological than physical. If that's the case imagery may help or giving him race strategies that enhance his confidence during the race..

Have you thought to ask him what goes on in his head during the race?

Whatever you do if you suspect it's psychological make sure you are supportive and don't give off the impression you think he's a head case. I say this because that can be the turning point where the athlete loses hope and then it's extremely hard to help them..

Also check out this thread..

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=6833914

It goes over many possibilities in cases like this.. As a coach it's your judgement to determine what possibilities are most likely based on what you know about the athlete and basically using a trial and error strategy but that thread highlights most possibilities to provoke thought..

Good luck

By inhibited (I don't know what word I was actually looking for) an early peak I meant catalyzed, as in maybe dropping mileage caused him to peak early..

Oops...

He may have been cross training (cycling, swimming) during the summer and building his aerobic base in other ways. Now that school has started, and he's purely devoted to running, the cross training ended too soon in the season and he peaked too early.

MTownRunr7 wrote:

10 miles runs with him where our last 2 miles were 5:40's, he's done 5x1000m averaging 3:22(1:30 rest) and last week we did 5x1600m where he averaged 5:17(3:00 rest).

He can run 2 miles at 84 pace, after running 8 miles

He can run 5x1000 at 81 pace with 90 rest

He can run 5x1600 at 79 pace with 180 rest

I was a little faster than this my freshman year of college, and a little slower than this when I got back to running a few years after college.

Forget 17:00, this kid should be breaking 16:00, and below 15:30 on the roads.

It could be mental, or he has a bad coach. The intervals above are long enough to be the same as tempo runs. You want him to run 81 pace for races and he doesn't go far enough under that. He needs to do more faster stuff and more resistance stuff (hills or sled) next year. This year is too late. Maybe have him run a road half marathon after the season, and since he isn't racing other kids with good coaches he can win his age group and get confidence that way.

My god I can't believe this guy's coach has his 17+ runners doing 5 x mile in high school. I never went over race distance (3 x mile, 5 x kilo, 6 x 800, 10 x 400 in HS, 6 x mile, 10 x kilo, 10 x 800, 16 x 400 in University)