My Journey to Sub 16 5K, Including My Training Logs. Need all the help I can get

Here's my past thread from 2 years ago:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=5934662

Looks like the 5k was short.

You should get a training log like this one, much easier to read: https://www.strava.com/athletes/2911188/training/log?feature=sidebar-progress-goals-v2

Thanks for sharing your experience and whole journey about your experience with that training. I had also same kind of experience few years back and had a very tough life with a full time job. But I had urge for continuing my education then I took help from an online university to continue my academic career too, any candidate can apply for any major details can be seen here.http://www.madisonhillsuniversity.com

I'll hop on the bandwagon and see if we can motivate each other, similar to the multiple goal-seeker's on the famous Eddy Lee thread. We are in much different places but have similar goals.

I'm 31 and haven't run a sub 17 5k since college. I hope to change that in a couple weeks. I've been getting around 55-60 mpw lately.

Last week's workouts

1) 6xk w/ 2 minutes rest. Kept them between 3:19-3:24. Was hoping for better but legs felt a little tired.

2) Long run/tempo. Loosened up for a couple miles then started working it down and ran 12 in 72 low. Felt good and best long run for some time. 16 miles total.

This week's workout so far:

1) 10x600m w/ diagonal walk recovery. 1:53 on the first, then mostly 1:49-1:51, and closed in 1:41 on the last one.

Weather is looking pretty dicey for a workout #2 this week...wanted to try mile reps but may have to just tempo on a treadmill.

I'm starting the speed sessions this week, but I will start to go to bed early starting tonight. Tomorrow I can finally do my first speed session of 15x300 w/200j and see how that goes. I'll take any advice to get under 16 using the base I currently have. Is it enough to break 16 though?

So you have read the Hadd threads. So you know about the 200/200 workout.

My suggestion is to do a 200/200 workout at 43 and 57. In the thread, he did 25X but I would start with 16 and then try 20 next week. Then just do regular work days the week after.

&VHsad^%v98u34t6^ wrote:

So you have read the Hadd threads. So you know about the 200/200 workout.

My suggestion is to do a 200/200 workout at 43 and 57. In the thread, he did 25X but I would start with 16 and then try 20 next week. Then just do regular work days the week after.

Wait, really? I could do like 80 laps at that pace and I'm no sub 16 guy.

Nice thing you've included weather statistics.

I've studied the influence of humidity, temperature and air pressure on training.

Mainly because I've seen obvious difference of pace when running before 7am.

Even during the same run, if I was starting at 6am and finishing at 8am, in the first hour I felt sluggish and the pace with around 10s/km slower (15s/mile).

I thought that the high humidity from the morning is the cause, but after more tests and investigation I found that is the circadian cycle which causes that pace difference.

Between 5-7am my body was still in the "recovery" mode and not prepared for physical activity.

I wonder what effects it has on performance.

That's a possible factor to take in your training account.

George Ilie wrote:

Nice thing you've included weather statistics.

I've studied the influence of humidity, temperature and air pressure on training.

Mainly because I've seen obvious difference of pace when running before 7am.

Even during the same run, if I was starting at 6am and finishing at 8am, in the first hour I felt sluggish and the pace with around 10s/km slower (15s/mile).

I thought that the high humidity from the morning is the cause, but after more tests and investigation I found that is the circadian cycle which causes that pace difference.

Between 5-7am my body was still in the "recovery" mode and not prepared for physical activity.

I wonder what effects it has on performance.

That's a possible factor to take in your training account.

Interesting...

Do you take into account the time you got up? If j get up at 5:30 am I could run at 6:30, but if I get up at 5:00 am does that shift the "recovery" down?

Wouldn't want to be in recovery mode for a 5K race, although they usually start around 7:30 am

It's about what time you get up or eat breakfast. If you've got an important morning run, wake up at least 2hrs earlier. For an easy run, who cares if it's a little slower?

OP, I suggest you start tracking your sleep on a daily basis. Just write it down every day, estimating if necessary.

The observer bias will cause you to start sleeping more because you'll feel pressure to have good weekly totals.

For example, I got a new watch that tracked my sleep on August 13th. I didn't look at the sleep stats until a month later. In that 4 weeks I slept an average of 7.4 hours a night not including naps which I have no data for. Then I started paying attention to my sleep, including naps, and since then have averaged 8.1 hours per day.

Another way to look at it the number of days I got fewer than 7.5 hours of sleep at night (ignoring naps). Before I tracked sleep I had 17 days out of 28 below 7.5 hours. After I have had just 5 of 28 days below 7.5 hours. That's a huge difference and probably more relevant that the total number of hours slept total, because resting 10hrs isn't much better than 8hr, but 8 is much better than 6.

Sub16_5k wrote:

Interesting...

Do you take into account the time you got up? If j get up at 5:30 am I could run at 6:30, but if I get up at 5:00 am does that shift the "recovery" down?

Wouldn't want to be in recovery mode for a 5K race, although they usually start around 7:30 am

During the night our bodies are producing melatonin, which determines the sleep.

At 7:30 am, the melatonin is not secreted anymore.

At 6am, the body is secreting more cortisol, which is supposed to wake us up.

What happens if you start running at 6am is that on one hand you try to do effort while the body tries to rest (melatonin secretion), and on another hand your blood pressure rises too sudden, not just because of running, but because of the cortisol too.

This is a nice chart of the circadian rhythm cycle:

What seems to work fine for me is to limit the carbohydrates in the evening. Carbohydrates are promoting the cortisol production. The cortisol is bad when is too high.

This may explain something I've been noticing for a while;

Before all my runs, I take my resting and standing heart rate and list the lowest number on the charts. First I take my resting HR (where it'll go to the low 40s, high 30s) then I get up and take my standing HR (where stand for about a minute and put down the lowest HR number)

Right after I stand up, the HR will immediately and momentarily spike up and then plummet to the lowest number, which I know is a normal reaction to my body's change in position (blood rushes down, blood pressure, etc,)

One interesting observation is that the number that the HR spikes to is lower in the afternoon and higher in the morning. There seems to be little to no difference in resting/standing HR in PM and AM, but I find that right after I stand, my HR will spike up to around 65-75, then back down in an afternoon, but in the morning, that number is consistently 80-90 before plummeting down to the low 40s. It's normal for me, so there's no concern but just an observation.

What do you feel if your cortisol levels are too high before/during a morning run?

Update...

Haven't done barely anything this week. Tough weather, and the fact that I think I'm starting to lose motivation. I don't even know what to do anymore. I don't have a coach, or anyone and I only get so fast before I hit some limit, and this happened this Tuesday morning, the only run I did all week so far.

Having taken Monday off, for once, I went to bed at 10:30 PM (first time I go to bed before 11 in months). My legs felt unusually heavy after waking up, but after I took my resting HR, it hit..37 bpm. The lowest HR I've had all year. My standing went to 39 bpm. I didn't have the anxiety I usually have when I run on 3-4 hours of sleep. I actually felt good. My HR was relaxed and just dropped like a stone, didn't have to fight it down all the way.

During my half mile warm-up, my legs felt a heck of a lot better, better than they felt in a while. I did my run and here's the splits and HR's. Keep in mind, this is how I usually run all my 45 Minute Workdays, mostly progressive style. It seems to have worked best for me:

(Splits and Average Heart Rates)

Temp. 73. Dew Point: 72 Degrees 10/04/16

45 Min Work Day - 6:30 AM HR Range: 164-170

Mile 1: 6:41.9 (144 bpm)

Mile 2: 6:26.1 (160 bpm)

Mile 3: 6:14.9 (165 bpm)

Mile 4: 6:10.9 (170 bpm)

Mile 5: 6:06.6 (175 bpm)

Mile 6: 6:01.3 (180 bpm)

Mile 7: 6:00.2 (181 bpm)

Last 0.22: 1:18.5 (181 bpm) 5:54/mi pace

Total: 7.22mi. Average Pace: 6:14/mi Average HR: 168 bpm (perfect in range)

Usually, I always run my last mile around 5:40-ish. My legs just couldn't go faster to make my HR go up. My max is around 199-200 bpm. The last mile I literally couldn't make them "go." It's like I hit a wall. If I tried to go faster, they would only slow down. This is an issue I had last year in March when I ran these at higher heart rates but at 5:50/mi pace. It's like this "burning" pain that's all over the back of my legs and thighs, and weakness and I start breathing hard, in the 170s, when I never used to, and I can't go faster. Is it low glycogen? Am I not eating enough?

This is an issue that has plagued me the last 2 years. It would also affect me in races. That 16:43 I ran back in 2014? I averaged a 181 heart rate. 181. I would've broken 16 if I could get it up to the 190s or high 180s at least but like this week, I just couldn't make my legs go faster. I can't really describe it the feeling but they just won't go on that last mile. I had no kick or that extra gear. Could it be from going to bed early? Muscle catabolism? Why has this been happening?? I really need your help guys. I'm losing motivation and I honestly don't know what to do anymore. I'm at a huge loss, since, as you see in my first post, I've been at this since March. I want to start speed work to peak for my Turkey Trot but I have no idea. Thank you anyone that can help. Anything at this point would really be appreciated.

So, do you have insomnia? ... Bobby Curtis struggles with it, maybe you could glean something from his experience (there are better articles out there)

https://www.google.com/amp/www.runnersworld.com/rt-training/bobby-curtis-is-sleeping-on-the-job%3famp?client=safari

I hope you keep this thread going, I'd like to join in in a few months but I'm too slow right now (ran mid 18s XC 5ks in high school , during mid-20s I did my longest stretch of training (1 and 1/2 years) and pr'd with 4:48 1600, 21:00 XC 6kand upper 16s for 5k). Breaking 16 is a new goal, now that I'm early 30s and back running for a few months.

Good luck!

This is standard circadian cycle. see for example

It's because you don't do speed work. Of course you hit a speed and effort wall.

Yeah, I would suggest one of his weekly workouts to consist of 200s-400s at mile pace, one per week 4-6 weeks before the target race. 1600m-2000m of total work. Recoveries are 2x longer than the hard rep.

Sub 16 min 5k is also my goal for 2017. I'm a low mileage guy, 22 mpw.

I've raced hilly 5k xc in the woods 17:26.

10k on road 35.49

15k hilly xc in the woods 56.05

What's your average mpw?