Jack Daniels 2Q'ing Again - Long Run Advice

Thanks, 7:30. Maybe I've been running the E runs a bit too fast, but VDOT55 does have the E pace at 7:20-8:20, and the recent 18:21 in the 5k suggests a VDOT55. Only problem is that my shorter race PRs don't tend to scale very well to the Marathon, so you're not the only one! :)

It sounds like Jack did you right with the HM -- 6:25 pace for 13.1 is excellent!

Sounds like we're on the same page with the training. Goal race is the Grand Rapids Marathon in October, so I still have a little time to improve. I'll definitely provide updates to this thread for those who may be interested in a sub-3 using the 2Q with a 70 mile peak. I'm NOT saying I'm going to get it, but I'm going to follow the plan and see what happens.

With those times & workouts a sub-3 is not going to happen, aside from miracles.

Anyway, dreaming is good for the soul.

The whole point of this thread was to get some opinions and feedback on the 2Q plan with respect to my sub-3 goal and current mileage. If you could provide some insight into the specific things you believe are lacking, it might be helpful! Thanks!

Nice progression so far and good luck with the sub-3 attempt. I am curious to see how the 2Q plan works out for you as my typical build up includes more frequent and longer long runs. But the premise of including faster running in the 2Q long runs makes a lot of sense. Good luck

All right. A little update with 4 weeks to go till the big race. I ran a Half Marathon yesterday with a "mini-taper". I front loaded the week so that I could have 3 days of 4 easy miles before the half. I'm still getting in the required 63 miles per week and using this race as my weekend Q1 workout (and moving the actual Q1 of 20E to the Q2 spot, per JD's instruction.)

I don't think it counts as a "real" taper, but my legs did feel fresher than they have in a long time. Weather was absolutely perfect, about 52-57 degrees F. The course itself was a big loop with some hills. Garmin shows 489 ft gain and 476 ft loss. The end result was a 1:24:21, which is a solid PR for me.

I'm convinced that the Jack Daniels' Running Formula is working better than my previous fly-by-the-seat-of-my-pants training, but the unknown for me at this point is whether or not this will extend out to 26.2. I'm following the 2Q with 70 MPW peaks plan to the letter so far, and the workouts have been pretty much right on target for VDOT 54-55. This race on the weekend is the only deviation from the standard plan at this point, so I think this really is a good test of the plan at the mileage I'm running.

VDOT of 55 based on today's race indicates a 2:56 for the full...we shall see!

You should feel very encouraged.

I mean, listen - the marathon is a bit of a crap shoot, because you never know what is going to happen on race day. You could have terrible weather, you could cramp up, you could screw up nutrition, you could end up spending some time in no man's land running by yourself - all of those things happened to me in only two marathons - you could have all manner of issues pop up.

But all you can do is prepare and use existing races to help establish a goal for race day. And there is no better race to use to predict your marathon effort than a marathon.

I'm doing the 2Q Marathon A plan from the 2nd edition for the third time because I think I responded well to it the last 2 marathons, including a PR the first time and a half PR the next (actual marathon I crashed, but still only 2 min off from PR). I'm also doing about the same amount of mileage as you. I don't think you can really do the program on anything much less.

The main tweaks I make are that I run 6 days a week instead of 7, and when it comes to the easy long runs, it says something like "22 miles or 2.5 hours, whichever is less," I will typically do the 22 miles even if it takes me longer than 2.5 hours.

I feel like there are plenty of long runs and quality long runs. This last week (early phase III), I had a 16 mile run with 5 miles of threshold mixed in on top of a 12 mile threshold workout I did in the middle of the week. So both Q sessions are fairly long. The next several weeks the long runs are no less than 17 miles and most look to be 19-20.

Awesome! I previously posted in this tread and I am personally rooting for you. I ran a 1:24:59 back in April and currently 8 weeks away from marathon. Been running 60-65 mpw consistenly (i.e. no down week). Longest run 17 miles so far.

We seem very close right now, in theory, except you seem to be flying on easy runs.

May I ask you what kind of paces and HR you've been running to get some sense of guide?

T pace for me is about 6:19 (HR 169-170) for stuff like 3 x 10'

M pace for me is about 6:52 (or so I wish) (HR 160-163)

Recently the cooler temps have led to 8:00 pace for HR 140, 7:30 for HR 150 or so.

Congrats and keep up! PLEASE be careful post-half, as your body likely needs to recover more than usual. Have you been running long every weekend? I plan on continuing to build up to 20, a slight deviation from the plan. I normally do 3 w/u + 4 @ 8:00 + 4 @ 7:30 + 4 @ MP + 2 @ 7:30 type of long runs, building up the MP portions. That's taxing but seems to be working well. Good luck man!!

I mean, listen - the marathon is a bit of a crap shoot, because you never know what is going to happen on race day. You could have terrible weather, you could cramp up, you could screw up nutrition, you could end up spending some time in no man's land running by yourself - all of those things happened to me in only two marathons - you could have all manner of issues pop up.

Thanks, Smoove, you're 100% correct. I still sometimes think about that one Marathon where I made a wrong turn and ended up on the Half Marathon course. That was a sad day, indeed, but at least I only had 12 miles in. Yes, anything can happen in a Marathon and that's what makes it so "dangerous" and exciting. I'm going to give sub-3 an honest shot, even if it means blowing up spectacularly! :)

Thanks for the input, txRUNNERgirl!

Nice to hear about the PR using the program! Yes, I agree that the higher weekly volume helps build the strength to complete the workouts. I was considering bumping up to the next tier of program (i.e. 80 wk peaks), but I don't think I could handle the extra hard mile or so in the workouts without already being comfortable at 75-80 mpw.

I'm doing the 3rd edition of the 2Q, and the longest run I have is 20 miles. There are a 2 long runs/week in the 16-18 range with workouts like you described in the middle.

I do have a question -- you're doing about 70 mpw peak? I'm just curious how your marathon PR scales with PRs at shorter distances like 5K, 10K, and Half. In other words, has 70 mpw using JD's program allowed you to run a Marathon equivalent to shorter distances? How closely did the M pace you used in your workouts match the actual M pace you ran in your Marathon?

I'm doing 65-70 peak, aiming for 3:15-3:20 marathon.

My PR is 3:22:02 at Boston 2015, which I ran the first time I used the plan. If I recall, I think my paces were based off a 3:25 goal (my prior PR was 3:27). I peaked at 65 mpw (6 day weeks). I felt great pretty much the entire race.

I then used the plan again for Chicago 2015, peaking at 70 mpw and aiming for 3:15. My training went better than ever. I PRed in the half with a 1:31:56 and ran the fastest 5K I'd run in 11 years (19:24, PR is 18:52). The 5K surprised me since the plan isn't really geared towards 5K type workouts. I just personally respond better to marathon training.

Then Chicago race day came and I just wasn't feeling it. I mentally wasn't there, felt tired and shut it down around mile 16. Even with the "easy" pace for the rest of the race, I still ran 3:24 or so, which could have been worse.

For the M pace runs, I'd go off of my goal pace, so for 3:15, that's 7:25. I was just looking at a M pace run I did last year before Chicago and it was 15 miles at 7:15 pace. So I don't know if I peaked too early or what happened there.

I actually don't feel like I am in as good of shape right now compared to when I was training for Chicago, so it will be interesting to see what happens.

That sounds good! Very close to what I'm doing right now, although it seems you were in better shape in April than I was, so maybe you're farther along now than you think! :)

*All of these paces are based on my GPS watch, which would be about 5 secs/mile slower than actual pace in a race due to tangents or whatever

8/13: First 13 of 26.2 @7:15 (HR 163) - Ran a 3:21 (HR 166 avg/180 pk)

8/14: First 13 of 26.2 @7:18 (HR 157) - Ran a 3:15 (HR 163 avg/181 pk)

11/14: First 13 of 26.2 @7:15 (HR 151) - Ran a 3:10 (current PR) (HR 153avg /174 pk)

4/16: First 13 miles of 26.2 @7:05 (HR 162) - Ran a 3:11:17 (injured during training but tried for PR anyway - nothin' to lose!) (HR 162 avg/171 pk)

As you can see from the data above, my best race had the lowest average and peak heart rate.

Recent heart rates (once again, paces by GPS):

HM: First 13 of 13.1 @6:23 (HR 157) - Ran a 1:24:21

T (4x2 middle of 18 mile run) @6:22 (HR 158)

M (12 cont. miles middle of 17 miles): @6:45 (HR 158)

E (20 cont. miles): @7:30 (HR 136)

The recent paces above were run in shirt-off-hotter-than-comfortable weather except for the HM. Otherwise, I think that HR would be higher!

I'm trying to be careful! I definitely feel beat up, but I'm hoping for some relief tomorrow because I have one more 20 miler scheduled. Yes, I've been running 16-18 miles 2 times a week with workouts just like you're describing in the middle. It's definitely helping me out! I used to be a big fan of the 20 mile progressive run, but if these workouts within a long run workout work out for my upcoming race, than I just might be a Jack Daniels convert!

Good luck to you, too!

That's really awesome, txRUNNERgirl! A PR at Boston is a great testament that the program works -- that's not a chump course by any means! Nice PRs, btw! It does sound like Chicago was just an off day based on the other PR/near PR you ran building up to it. As Smoove alluded to above, a Marathon is an "all your eggs in one basket" adventure and sometimes crap happens!

Thanks again for taking the time to share your experience with the 2Q! Good luck with your training! :)

You're in great shape and should give sub-3 your best shot as you noted.

Looks like you stand a good chance going out in 6:45s for the first 10-13, and adjust as needed after that!

Hope you post back after your race so we all know how it played out! I certainly will check.

Out of curiosty 2Q in the 3rd edition just gives you Q1/Q2 and you build the rest of the week as you see fit right?

I typically do Mon 6.5 recovery, Tue 8.5 easy, Wed Q2 (T-pace) but shorter, only 10.5 mi or so, Thu 6.5 recovery, Fri 8.5 general aerobic, Sat easy trail, Sunday long including M-pace (so Q1 which I plan to build up to 20..)

Haven't quite followed the plan to a T, simply the overall logic/balance. I think that as you note the overall consistency helped you build the strength for the Q1 workouts. I hope you look back at your training with pride and look forward to race day!

How long do you run when you do your 9.5 milers?

I really think that most people would benefit quite a bit from stretching those 8.5 milers into runs that last 70-75 minutes, assuming that the 8.5 milers are an hour or just over it.

Smoove wrote:

How long do you run when you do your 9.5 milers?

I really think that most people would benefit quite a bit from stretching those 8.5 milers into runs that last 70-75 minutes, assuming that the 8.5 milers are an hour or just over it.

This might suprise you...but my 8.5 milers have taken anywhere from 1h13 (8:40 or so) to over 1hr25 (10:00 min/mi).

On average I'd say 75-78 min is quite right. Yes that' slow...I try to run at least an hour every day (6.5-7 miles) and any run that is not a workout is super slow. In other terms I can run a 17 miler at 7:30 average with the last 10 at 7:00 pace without much trouble, but on easy day, we are talking 8:30-9:30 range or slower as needed.

I thought running that slow could hurt me, but I've found that I got good benefits from slow long easy runs. The worst I've done is a 10 miler in 100 minutes, granted that was in the heat.

Is that weird for someone who's run (a smidge) under 1:24 in the half? Goal is 3:05...and perhaps a shot at sub 3. On easy days, my brain and legs just don't go much faster than 9 min/mi. It's getting better as it cools now though!

Mon/Thu are roughly 60-65 minutes

Tue/Fri/Sat are 75 minutes

Wed tempo total time incl w/u c/d ~ 80 min

Sun long runs currently 120 min. Will not exceed 150 min.

8:40 seems on the slow side, but I'm a believer in taking as slow as you like as long as you are getting your heart rate up adequately (Jack D says at least 65% of your max heart rate). So it sounds like you have my pet issue covered.

Bump. How are you doing? When is the big race? Very interesting to hear on your progress/results, as we're very close in terms of both racing times and training. Hope you're well!

Hey there, 7:30, thanks for the bump! The big race was earlier today (well, technically yesterday now). I won't leave you hanging: 2:59:00.04, which is Sub 3! :)

This was on the Metro Health Grand Rapids Marathon course, which is just about as flat as it gets. No "downhill assist" or anything like that, so I would say it's an honest, fast course. The weather was absolutely perfect: 38 to 53 degrees during the run, and the sky was clear. There was also almost no wind except maybe a slight headwind near the end.

Another advantage that I should divulge is that I ran with a pace group. I'm pretty steady with the pacing when I'm running alone through corn fields in some of the smaller races, but it was nice to not have to worry about it. The pacer was entertaining, offering advice and insights. It was like a guided tour of the sub-3 marathon. That dude rocked that marathon like a BOSS, sign and all.

Things were feeling good until about mile 20. I started to notice that the pace was taking its toll, and by the time I reached mile 23, every step was getting really painful and I felt like my legs were going to fail me at any moment. That concerned me. I had to dig really, really deep to keep the pace. I am absolutely shocked, but my last 3 miles were @ 6:42, 6:28, 6:44 (by my watch). The last .68 (yes, I measured long) were 6:45. I swear I thought I was totally losing it, but apparently it just felt that way. Splits were exactly 1:30 and 1:29.

Long story short, I'm a confirmed believer in the 2Q plan. Although I was in a ton of pain during the last few miles, I've achieved an 11+ minute PR over my own training methods. I also think that the 2Q program with 56-70 mpw was the bare minimum (for me) to get to sub-3. Conditions were absolutely perfect and 2:59 doesn't leave a ton of wiggle room. I definitely left everything out on the course.

So that's the story, 7:30. I know you've got a race coming up. How's the training been going? If you think you're on the cusp of 3:00, then I'd suggest going out at 1:30 for the first half and then see what's left for round 2.

That's absolutely awesome...congratulations and well deserved! You nailed it.

Well done...that was well worth the temporary pain! What's your recovery plan now? Time off for a bit? Could you walk/hobble decently the day after?

My race is indeed coming up in 3 weeks (Philly). I don't really know where I am, on the cusp of 3 I would say. I ran 19 last Sunday in just under 2:22 (7:27 pace) starting slow and running 5 mi @ 7:20 and 5 mi @ 6:50 between miles 12-17. HR 159 or so for the M pace. I've averaged 60 mpw for a good 12 weeks, and 55 mpw over the past 20 weeks. I've run a single 16, 17, 18, 19 and will do 20 this weekend, similar to last week. These beat me up, so this week I skipped the tempo intervals. I can typically do 3 x 10 min @ 6:15 as tempo w/ 2' rest, that sort of thing.

Part of me thinks going in 7:00-7:05 is a better plan, but I've put a lot of effort and lost a bunch of weight during the training, so I'm thinking about giving it a shot and splitting a 1:30 first half.

I'm probably about as fast as you are in the 10k-half range, but I fear I may lack strength for the longer stuff! We shall see. My current PR is a 3:16, so 3:05 would already be a nice goal, leaving the possibility of sub 3 in the future. I feel a decent difference between 6:45 and 7:00 pace, that's for sure.

Again, congratulations man! Feel proud of that achievement. Your sub 3 is forever yours.