Malcolm Gladwell article on Caster Semenya

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7 years ago 08/19/2016 1:30pm EDT

re: Jon Orange

Jon Orange wrote:
KemboiFTW wrote:
Jon Orange that argument is completely uncalled for and you're accusations of bigotry show that you have no credible arguments and are resorting to emotional appeals to convince people of your argument. A classic "I've lost" tactic.
It's almost comical to think that people supporting women's right to equal and fair competition is viewed by you as "bigotry". I feel terribly for CS that she is caught in the middle of this but the fact remains that she cannot fairly compete against other women in her current state. Sometimes one individual's feelings might have to get hurt to protect the other 99.9% of the people out there.
So whom did I accuse of bigotry in that post? Not rojo, not Gladwell. It was the anti Semenya trolls.
And my point still stands. If she was cute and androgynous, she would not get the same treatment.
I'll say it again 1.55 is 14-15% slower than Rudisha. I think a 'normal' woman can run 1.52 and without drugs too.
But when that happens, the floodgates will open again, like they did over Ayana's 10000m time.
Some of you men are very insecure about how fast a woman can run. There are some great women runners in that 800 final, in case y'all hadn't noticed. Some of them aren't called Caster Semenya.
I just want to see a good race. Like in the women's 1500.

How can they be great if they are nowhere near that 1:52? If a bunch of 1:46 guys were the men's field would you call them great?

7 years ago 08/22/2016 10:37am EDT

re: Testy disposition

Testy disposition wrote:
Jon Orange wrote:
So whom did I accuse of bigotry in that post? Not rojo, not Gladwell. It was the anti Semenya trolls.
And my point still stands. If she was cute and androgynous, she would not get the same treatment.
I'll say it again 1.55 is 14-15% slower than Rudisha. I think a 'normal' woman can run 1.52 and without drugs too.
But when that happens, the floodgates will open again, like they did over Ayana's 10000m time.
Some of you men are very insecure about how fast a woman can run. There are some great women runners in that 800 final, in case y'all hadn't noticed. Some of them aren't called Caster Semenya.
I just want to see a good race. Like in the women's 1500.
How can they be great if they are nowhere near that 1:52? If a bunch of 1:46 guys were the men's field would you call them great?

Good point. I thought they would run faster. I think they psyched themselves out.

7 years ago 08/22/2016 10:57am EDT

re: Jon Orange

Jon Orange wrote:
This anti Semenya nonsense is based on what she looks like. If she was cute but androgynous, there wouldn't be such bigotry.

Jon Orange what is the matter with you. I enjoy your posts about skill in running, but surely you're mistaken to want men competing in women's running events.

Please consider if you were a woman, and all of a sudden had to run with men of an average level, but who were still somewhat faster than women, and who had much higher levels of testosterone then would be allowed for real women. You would not like it at all and would quickly revise your opinion.

The bigots are the misogynist men who don't care about women in the least, and are determined to embarrass them as much as possible, including running in their events, basically raping them in front of the entire world like Semenya is doing. You should think of the things you are saying, and of who exactly are the bigots, the ones who are disrespecting all women.

I cannot have any respect for you, unless you have respect for real women.

7 years ago 08/22/2016 12:57pm EDT

re: test2

test2 wrote:
I found this part of the exchange interesting. Gladwell used to very dismissive of doping, believed that at most athletes should be allowed to use whatever they want so long as certain parameters like hematocrit or testosterone didn't exceed certain limits. Apparently his opinion has evolved:
"Still, a careful analyst of the Gladwellian Å“uvre might find your position inconsistent. In a conversation we had a few years ago, you argued that athletes should be allowed to take testosterone supplements, at safe levels, as long as they revealed their regimens. So wouldnâ€™t a solution consistent with that argument be that the other women should be allowed to take supplementsâ€”not that Semenya should take inhibitors?
M.G.: Iâ€™ve changed my mind! I used to be something of a doping/natural-advantage skeptic. But the deeper I get immersed in the world of athleticsâ€”and the more seriously I take track and fieldâ€”the more of a purist Iâ€™ve become. Sports is the voluntary acceptance of unnecessary obstacles...."

I found this part interesting too! But I also wanted to add something - it doesn't actually seem inconsistent to me. Even if other women are allowed to raise their testosterone levels up to some limit, Caster would still (probably) be above that limit and be forced to take inhibitors. After all, it is hard to see them setting a limit higher than 10 nmol/l. Recall that 95% of females fall into the 0.2 - 2.5 nmol/l range, and 99% of female athletes are below 3.1 nmol/l.

So, since we know that Caster's natural testosterone level is over 10 nmol/l (otherwise she wouldn't have been required to take inhibitors prior to the CAS ruling) there is no contradiction. Apparently though, Gladwell has changed his mind about whether or not other women should be allowed to raise their testosterone up to the same level that Caster has to reduce hers to (which is interesting).

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