Do the two terms mean the same thing, or is one different than the other? I've heard both used to describe similar running paces but I also know that this type of running varies slightly with each coach/training plan. Discus.
Do the two terms mean the same thing, or is one different than the other? I've heard both used to describe similar running paces but I also know that this type of running varies slightly with each coach/training plan. Discus.
They should mean the same thing but many people have no idea what they're talking about when they use these terms. What they both should mean is the exact pace in which your body can nearly flush out all the lactic acid it produces but is just barely producing more than it can clear. Lactate threshold pace is 85% of your VO2 max pace and that can be determined by running an all out two mile. Run one and your pace per mile is your VO2 max. 85% of that is your lactate threshold pace. Simple as that. Thanks for asking that question. This is an important topic to clarify.
I don't mean to rip on anyone but I see lots of really bad threads with misinformation all over them. For example this recent one is something that should be ignored.
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=7460410
Unless somebody comes to you with solid science and can cite where they found the info they are giving you, disregard their advice. Obviously these posters don't mean to cause you hard or deliberately misinform you but they ended up doing that anyways. Be wary of advice with nothing backing it up.
LJTR wrote:
They should mean the same thing but many people have no idea what they're talking about when they use these terms. What they both should mean is the exact pace in which your body can nearly flush out all the lactic acid it produces but is just barely producing more than it can clear. Lactate threshold pace is 85% of your VO2 max pace and that can be determined by running an all out two mile. Run one and your pace per mile is your VO2 max. 85% of that is your lactate threshold pace. Simple as that. Thanks for asking that question. This is an important topic to clarify.
-Lactate threshold may be a different percentage of VO2 max than 85%. It may be higher or lower, and the fitter you are, the higher.
-VO2 max pace may not be your all out 2 mile pace.
-"Tempo" is a term which may be define differently in different systems. Eg in Daniels, it is lactate threshold pace, but the Hanson brothers call runs at goal HM pace 'tempo' runs.
Hansens calls it that because their marathoners can run a HM at LT pace. Shorter distance runners and mid distance runners will be very different.
Also, if you're anywhere from a 19 min 5ker in high school to a 15 minute college 5ker the Balke VO2 max test converts to the all out two mile extremely well. For this same group of people LT pace will be very very close to 85%. It's more than a rule of thumb, it's proven.
I just reread your last point and goal HM pace in Hansens and LT pace in Daniels is redundant because they are both aat the point in which your body can barely not flush out all the lactic acid being created. Different names, same definition.
Also, considering you have to take a blood sample to find out your exact LT pace, the Balke VO2 max test is a little more realistic for your everyday runner.
Both terms are obsolete.
LJTR wrote:
They should mean the same thing but many people have no idea what they're talking about when they use these terms.
You are utterly clueless.
LJTR wrote:
...your VO2 max pace and that can be determined by running an all out two mile. Run one and your pace per mile is your VO2 max. 85% of that is your lactate threshold pace. Simple as that.
Sadly, it is not quite as simple as that. VO2max pace is definitely not automatically two-mile pace regardless of whether it is a 8:0x guy or an 10:xx guy.
And how well a runner clears lactate is going to vary between runners, too. 85% of VO2max pace is not just some magical number! Think of a 1500-5000 guy like El G vs a half/marathon monster like Mutai. El G would have a faster VO2max pace, obviously, but he certainly wouldn't have a faster threshold pace.
LJTR wrote:
They should mean the same thing but many people have no idea what they're talking about when they use these terms. What they both should mean is the exact pace in which your body can nearly flush out all the lactic acid it produces but is just barely producing more than it can clear. Lactate threshold pace is 85% of your VO2 max pace and that can be determined by running an all out two mile. Run one and your pace per mile is your VO2 max. 85% of that is your lactate threshold pace. Simple as that. Thanks for asking that question. This is an important topic to clarify.
Convenient answer, but not right.
Threshold is as LTJR states, that pace where your body can nearly flush out all the lactic acid.
Tempo, is, IMO a range that on the high intensity side, is as LTJR states. The low intensity side is useless. Most tempo work takes place below threshold. The point of tempo work being to induce fatigue in the endurance muscle fibers, below threshold. The reason below threshold is you can't race every workout.
Tempo, is, IMO a range that on the high intensity side, is as LTJR states. The low intensity side is useless. Most tempo work takes place below threshold. The point of tempo work being to induce fatigue in the endurance muscle fibers, below threshold. The reason below threshold is you can't race every workout.[/quote]
If the kind of fatigue you're trying to induce is muscular fatigue then the only way to do that is to create a muscle fuel issue. If you're running below LT pace than that means your muscles can re-synthesize ATP (adenosine triphosphate) quick enough to keep up for the demand. But if it can't re-synthesize ATP quick enough a waste product of ATP (lactic acid) begins to build up between the fibers of your muscles and that creates fatigue. ATP is what separates living from non living objects. ATP is the molecule for all usable and energy reserves in anythings body. All the way from bacteria to humans.
What you said was "The point of tempo work being to induce fatigue in the endurance muscle fibers, below threshold." but as we can see this is impossible because when running at below threshold pace your body can re-synthesize ATP quick enough to keep you from becoming fatigued. Unless you run out of reserves which is difficult to do unless you don't have any carbohydrates in your body. And of course it takes more than a half hour of running to expend all of your reserves.
And it's important to not train below or above this threshold because when you spend time right at threshold your bodys ability to store sodium bicarbonate will improve. This point is about 2.0 millimole/kg of body mass. While you sit and read it's anywhere from .5 to 1 millimole/kg.
If you don't believe me about baking soda you can read right here.
LJTR wrote:
I don't mean to rip on anyone but I see lots of really bad threads with misinformation all over them. For example this recent one is something that should be ignored.
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=7460410Unless somebody comes to you with solid science and can cite where they found the info they are giving you, disregard their advice. Obviously these posters don't mean to cause you hard or deliberately misinform you but they ended up doing that anyways. Be wary of advice with nothing backing it up.
I don't mean to rip on anyone either, but I'm curious why you say someone should be backing up training advice with "solid science".
It's very, very, very rare to find a good exercise physiology publication which couples are large number (100+) well-trained runners (
LJTR wrote:
If the kind of fatigue you're trying to induce is muscular fatigue then the only way to do that is to create a muscle fuel issue. If you're running below LT pace than that means your muscles can re-synthesize ATP (adenosine triphosphate) quick enough to keep up for the demand. But if it can't re-synthesize ATP quick enough a waste product of ATP (lactic acid) begins to build up between the fibers of your muscles and that creates fatigue. ATP is what separates living from non living objects. ATP is the molecule for all usable and energy reserves in anythings body. All the way from bacteria to humans.
What you said was "The point of tempo work being to induce fatigue in the endurance muscle fibers, below threshold." but as we can see this is impossible because when running at below threshold pace your body can re-synthesize ATP quick enough to keep you from becoming fatigued. Unless you run out of reserves which is difficult to do unless you don't have any carbohydrates in your body. And of course it takes more than a half hour of running to expend all of your reserves.
You're saying that a runner with a 16:00 5k PR, and lets say, tips the "threshold" at 5:30 pace, could run 5:35 pace for 2 hours, because it is below threshold.
No way.
You are guilty of your first post, and over-sciencing.
The reason there are so many threads on tempo/threshold/steady-state is because they are all ambiguous in terms of the science and training, and coaches and lab scientists aren't interested in understanding what each other mean.
In the research, there can be 10 meanings for lactate threshold. One research team might get a finding using 85% of VO2 max, and then another team might use 55% and then make different recommendations for training. No one, especially coaches, is interested in the definitions one research paper is using when talking about hill reps and recreational athletes or a paper on fasted training in elites.
A discussion of context of lactate is well described here:
http://guruperformance.com/episode-78-lactate-lactic-acid-and-performance-with-professor-david-bishop/7:00 starts a discussion of relevant definitions.
For me, the rocket science is not important. Long tempo, Short Tempo, and everything in between, doesn't matter. 60 minute tempos have a different mechanic than 20 minute tempos, and they are different workouts. But I still use the word tempo. The shorter you go, the faster you can go. Sometimes you want to go fast, sometimes you want to go long. That's the starting point. You make decisions based on the goal for that point in your periodization.
It's very, very, very rare to find a good exercise physiology publication which couples are large number (100+) well-trained runners (
It's very, very, very rare to find a good exercise physiology publication which couples are large number (100+) well-trained runners (
It's very, very, very rare to find a good exercise physiology publication which couples are large number (100+) well-trained runners with a lengthy and varied training programs while describing the everyday activities and previous background of each, and matching race times to measured physiological stats in such a way that a given training methodology can be shown to be definitely superior for certain runners beyond what common training knowledge suggests. I'd go as far as to say that such a study is non-existent.
You can try to look at science all day, and rest assured others much more well-versed in it have tried too, but it's not likely to help you figure out good training any more than listening to your body and following the advice of more reasonable and accomplished runners, some of whom can be found on these boards.
LJTR wrote:
They should mean the same thing but many people have no idea what they're talking about when they use these terms. What they both should mean is the exact pace in which your body can nearly flush out all the lactic acid it produces but is just barely producing more than it can clear. .
How's your body going to flush out lactic acid since your body doesn't produce it?
Or are you just one of many people who have no idea what they're talking about when they use these terms?
great, succinct explanation. that should probably live permanently on the home page.* actually, there should be a better spot for factual info like this on Letsrun
LJTR wrote:
They should mean the same thing but many people have no idea what they're talking about when they use these terms. What they both should mean is the exact pace in which your body can nearly flush out all the lactic acid it produces but is just barely producing more than it can clear. Lactate threshold pace is 85% of your VO2 max pace and that can be determined by running an all out two mile. Run one and your pace per mile is your VO2 max. 85% of that is your lactate threshold pace. Simple as that. Thanks for asking that question. This is an important topic to clarify.