Tempo run question for 5k training

Your current 5k pace + 20 seconds per mile. 20 min. Start there.

*stipe wrote:

Your current 5k pace + 20 seconds per mile. 20 min. Start there.

Thanks. I built up to doing 6:19 for 25 minutes (that is ~ 20 seconds per mile above 18:30 5k pace) then upped the pace to 6:11 today and did that for a little over 20 minutes. I was able to do it but it felt very difficult, not sure I could have held it for another five minutes, which was the onus for my question. Maybe I just need to give it more time.

*stipe wrote:

Your current 5k pace + 20 seconds per mile. 20 min. Start there.

Way too hard. 40+ seconds/mile slower at least.

rosshm16 wrote:

*stipe wrote:

Your current 5k pace + 20 seconds per mile. 20 min. Start there.

Thanks. I built up to doing 6:19 for 25 minutes (that is ~ 20 seconds per mile above 18:30 5k pace) then upped the pace to 6:11 today and did that for a little over 20 minutes. I was able to do it but it felt very difficult, not sure I could have held it for another five minutes, which was the onus for my question. Maybe I just need to give it more time.

You didn't do a tempo run, you did a conservative time trial.

tempos should not be that hard wrote:

*stipe wrote:

Your current 5k pace + 20 seconds per mile. 20 min. Start there.

Way too hard. 40+ seconds/mile slower at least.

20s for a 25 min run is about right. For a slower runner 30s can work. The 40s off 5k works if you are doing like 40-60 hour marathon paced runs.

But don't run tempo runs faster. Run them longer. Or add surges (5k for 1 lap/mile). Trying to run them faster just encourages you to up the effort level until you get to race pace. If you are racing every 4-6 weeks, up the pace off results. If you aren't race, you could up the pace 5-10s every month if they are really feeling easier. Tempos are workouts though where it is better to be a bit on the too easy side than too hard. It is way too easy to race them if you are trying to run faster every week. You go from running 4 miles at HM to 4 miles at 10k pace to 4 miles at 8k pace and then you crash and burn.

ASal is on video answering this question concerning Tempo for HS 5k. I believe the question was directed for CC. Sal said at least a 4 mile. He said lets say your fastest 5k on the TRACK is 15:30, for example. That is about a 5 flat per mile. He said so your 4 mile Tempo should be 15 sec slower per mile. These guys are right could be 20 sec slower as you progress to certain fitness level etc. Maybe that 15:30 best on the track was awhile back. Did this with HS guys and it is pretty much right on. Watched Jordan Hasay and Cain doing this exact 4 mile Tempo that ASal mentioned.

rosshm16 wrote:

Suppose I want to run a 5k in 17:XX and my current ability is 18:XX. What should be the parameters of my tempo run?

I guess a more general question is should I be doing tempos at all or something else?

A typical week of training (~ 50 mpw lately) is something like:

- Workout 1: short intervals on a track (usually 400 repeats)

- Workout 2: longer intervals on a track (usually 1000 repeats)

- Workout 3: tempo

- Long run on the weekend, 7:30 pace if I'm feeling good

- Easy runs in between

I've been doing this for most of this calendar year, only recently added the long intervals.

Thanks in advance

This isn't entirely about tempo runs but is an attempt to be generally helpful.

If it's not a major inconvenience, I'd suggest running a double, even if it's just once a week. For that double, you can just do 10-15 minutes super super slow at another time of day from your normal run, then do whatever workout you were planning. During that "extra" run, focus on running absolutely effortlessly, even if that means you need to run 10 min pace. See if you can run breathing just barely, only through your nose, and not even breaking a sweat. That will teach you relaxation - try to achieve that feeling on your recovery days.

In my best training, when I was running >3 min faster for 5k than your current marks, I'd never "force" a workout. I'd start a day with my morning 10-25 minute "double" super easy recovery run in the morning. That would give me a sense of how my workout later that day would go. If I felt exertion even during my super slow recovery pace, and still felt heavy legs in the evening, then I would just go out for another 3-4 miles at that pace. I

If things improved over those 3-4 miles, and I felt like I hadn't done a tempo sort of effort recently, sure I'd ease into a "tempo". If I felt my legs get heavy or tie up at any time, I'd slow down to a crawl and call it a day - and see if my body was ready for a tempo the next day. Even if I felt amazing and was just zooming around, I never cared to use a watch. What did it matter if I was +/- 10 sec/mile, I knew I was hitting the right effort.

If I went more than 2 days just doing really easy recovery runs, I'd find myself naturally speeding up the next day and falling into a threshold/tempo pace. That's when I knew it was time to do a tempo - rather than force a certain workout against my body. Sometimes I'd feel like I was struggling with the turnover for tempo pace - then the next time I felt energetic I'd throw in some faster repeats/strides/hill sprints.

Your body will seek out tempo pace when it's ready for it, don't force it when it's not time.

This is very helpful, thanks.

This isnt summer training for high school right!? If not i suggest the following: yes your tempo is on the faster side. Are you doing it in the track? If so get off the track! Road or trials. I go 30-40sec/mile than 5k pace. Once 4 miles feels good extend that to 5 miles at that pace. I assume your tempo run and long run are on back to back days? I would change your schedule to say Mon 5k pace intervals, Wed tempo run, friday short hill workout like 8x200m hill. Can still be 400 repeats on track but i wouldnt do more than 8x4 but im a hill guy. Not sure how much your doing now. Saturday long run. Increasing mileage to 60mpw will help also.

rosshm16 wrote:

Suppose I want to run a 5k in 17:XX and my current ability is 18:XX. What should be the parameters of my tempo run?

I guess a more general question is should I be doing tempos at all or something else?

A typical week of training (~ 50 mpw lately) is something like:

- Workout 1: short intervals on a track (usually 400 repeats)

- Workout 2: longer intervals on a track (usually 1000 repeats)

- Workout 3: tempo

- Long run on the weekend, 7:30 pace if I'm feeling good

- Easy runs in between

I've been doing this for most of this calendar year, only recently added the long intervals.

Thanks in advance

My advice is split that tempo-run into sets (3x7, 4x6, 3x8, 4x7 etc), with jog recoveries about 40/50% of the duration of the set. if you run 5k's you dont need to go over 30' overall and you are already doing two intervals sessions a week, from which you need to be sure to recover properly rather than adding another one under the shape of a long continuous effort at threshold or thereabout.... The suggested pace (5k+20"/25") is correct.

You might as well have the 15:30 guy train like Galen Rupp as have the mid-18 OP train like a 15:30 HS champ or Hasay or Cain.

The OP is already running short and long intervals in his week. We can either face up to the idea that he is doing way too much (and make him alternate long and short intervals) for an 18:XX guy or at least tell him that his 4 mile tempo should be at 5k +60 and no faster with all the other quality in his week.

"ASal is on video answering this question concerning Tempo for HS 5k. I believe the question was directed for CC. Sal said at least a 4 mile. He said lets say your fastest 5k on the TRACK is 15:30, for example. That is about a 5 flat per mile. He said so your 4 mile Tempo should be 15 sec slower per mile. These guys are right could be 20 sec slower as you progress to certain fitness level etc. Maybe that 15:30 best on the track was awhile back. Did this with HS guys and it is pretty much right on. Watched Jordan Hasay and Cain doing this exact 4 mile Tempo that ASal mentioned."

Tempo is fast not hard. Anything more than that and you're overthinking it for an 18:xx runner.

I am just getting around to reading all these replies.

The general consensus seems to be I'm doing too many workouts/week, so I think I will start alternating the tempo and 1000 each week (I like doing 400s). Will also go back to incrementing tempo time rather than speed.

Also def want to up volume to 60ish eventually like someone suggested. I just recently starting doing 50 most weeks (up from 40-45) so I will probably stay there for a bit first.

Thanks for all the feedback.