Need advice for HS program/runner

Bump.....come on people, this board isn't just for tearing others down......

First of all, just in case, nothing I write here is intended to be critical of the coaching.

First, a question: You sound like you think it's all in the boy's head. IS that what you think? Is he saying anything about how his legs are feeling, how he feels in races, etc.?

My first thought is that while it's not outrageous, that is still a lot of mileage for a high schooler. He may have just overtrained this year. What's his taper like? Does he? I know it's hard to get some people to do that.

From the mental side, what's the team like? Is he going into cross thinking about team scoring. Is he running all his workouts by himself? Those sorts of things can detract from the race for some people - it's no longer cross country, it's just a road race on dirt.

Why do you feel this kid needs to be running 80 miles a week? Very few HS kids can and should have to handle this workload. I would reccomend experiencing with things and seeing how he responds to lower mileage. Focus on quality and not quantity. Arkanas has done this in recent years. Instead of running 100-120 miles a week, they run 60-80 and quality. Same distance as your kid but older annd more mature and seasoned kids. Just some thoughts!

Our tapering involves cutting out doubles two weeks before the state championships and reducing the mileage to ~40-50 miles per week while running the same type of workouts. Our last workout was on the Tuesday before our state meet, which was on Saturday. As far as the mileage issue goes, we do the miles over the summer based mostly on feel. Feel good, run harder; feel tired, run slower. Pretty simple concept that the kids have learned to follow in this program. During the cross season, they run easy the day after workouts(which aren't deadly anaerobic sessions anyway!). Our long runs are slow runs usually done on Sunday if we didn't race the day before, or Monday if we raced on Saturday. In order to become a better runner, I believe you need to run more, and the kids agree. Everyone on the team has improved using this method. Everyone. If I get the kid as a freshman and he follows the program for 4 years, he usually ends up much faster than when he joined. This kid is different though, and I will admit that I don't know wether it is physical, mental, or a combination of the two. Our team is "team goal" oriented during cross country(we have been runner's up the last two years in our state champs to a team that is nationally ranked). The other team members have talked to me about this kid's inability to race well. He will outrun everyone in practice, but barely beat our No.2 runner in races. Do I think it is all in his head? I'm not sure. When he races, he just seems to zone out. He finds the inside lane of the track and seems to look at the ground when he races. He won't get outside and RACE. He and I have talked about this problem, and we can't seem to change it. He hears me telling him to look up during races, but he doesn't do it. He doesn't have this problem in workouts. I always ask him how his legs are feeling b/c we do so much mileage, and I do worry about overdoing it. If they are tired and sore, then we take a day off or an easy day. He has NEVER been injured in this program. He has never missed a competition due to injury. Most of the kids in our program are injury free during their whole high school career, and I believe this is due mainly to my being a disciple of Lydiard/Mileage. Most of our runs are on grass/dirt trails during summer/cross country/winter, but we have to train at school during track(mostly pavement and sidewalks, yuck). If you have any idea how to help me help him, then please give me some advice.

Coach,

I would agree that this sounds like a lot of mileage for the average HS runner. I have a runner who ran 9:40 for 3200m last year on 40 miles a week and a 15:45 XC 5k this year on 50 miles a week. That said, some runnners can handle large amounts of work without burning out. Yours may be one of them...

With my athletes I try to run them as much mileage as I feel I can while still getting some good quality in. Although we run all three seasons we run for only two peaks a year. We use the summer and fall for an XC peak and the winter and spring for a T&F peak. Here's a very simple breakdown of what we do. Much of it is taken from Jack Daniels / Joe Vigil / Arthur Lydiard.

SUMMER: An 8 week base phase with just running for the first 4 weeks. After that we incorporate long runs, strides, and some low key XC races as tempos that are put on locally. The goal is to hit last year's mileage ceiling the week before school starts.

FALL: The first 4 weeks include a long run every week, and usually some threshold intervals (3 x mile, and 5 x 1000m are common) with short rest. As well as one dual meet a week. (Have to fulfill your league obligations, right?). The next 4 weeks we go to a long run every other week as well as some repititions at mle pace or multi-paced workouts. (I do very little at 5k pace since it seems we race 3 times a month or so and get our VO2 max workouts there.)

WINTER: The first mont or so is much the same as the first month of XC. After that we follow a modified (as much as I can for a HS schedule) multi-tiered workout program, like Peter Coe. I do this here to incorporate a bit more speed for track as opposed to XC.

SPRING: A few weeks of just running then back into the multi-tiered workouts with a bit more emphasis on event specific workouts.

That's just what we do....training programs are like assholes...everyone's got one and some work better than others...

Interesting problem. The first thing that occurs to me is that he should not be outrunning everyone in practice. He's not that much faster than your number 2, and I believe that it's important to encourage a team to train in packs -- both for the sake of building team unity and to take the racing out of workouts. Urge him to work out a little easier, except *perhaps* on days when you really, really want to push them. (One needs not run at the top end of a training zone to get the maximum benefit of a workout.) There should be no recognition given to runners who beat teammates in workouts.

The next thing that occurs to me is that any runner who talks to you about the fact that your NUMBER ONE runner is not racing well enough needs to be encouraged to race that well themselves. Your number one runner should not be annointed by his workout pace.

Finally, it sounds like you're doing a great job of motivating your team. I doubt my team would maintain interest if they were asked to do that much mileage. As long as it's working, kids seem engaged, and as you say, there are no injuries, I don't see why you shouldn't continue on what sounds like a very successful regimen for you in your state. Nonetheless, you might consider a more dramatic reduction in mileage when you hope for them to peak. They've got the base, so give them fresh legs. Emphasize shorter runs and strides over the last few weeks, but keep them running (lightly) those last few days before finals so that they stay sharp.

Your post seems a bit odd. I'm inclined to call bullshit. If you really have coached runner up teams the past 2 years, I would be inclined to believe you have a good amount of experience. With that experience, you must have seen a number of people who look great in practice only to be unable to get it done in the meets. This isn't a new or very rare phenomenon you are seeing in your runner. And you mention that he did improve, albeit not as much as he probably should have. He went from 16:15 to 16:09. Not 16:15 to 17:15.

The timing is suspect too. This sounds more like a panicked kid on the eve of a season realizing he hasn't trained at all rather than a successful coach reviewing the last season and objectively looking forward. If you really are the coach, you are coming on to a message board basically bad-mouthing one of your top runners. I'm guessing kids on the team come here. Yeah, you don't use his name, but needlessly boosting about your runner-up team plus mentioning his times doesn't make it too hard for him or his teammates to figure out who it is.

I hope that you are the runner and are simply asking for advice. If you really are the coach and have the credentials you clearly state, then I am surprised because you sound like an Asshole.

Skeptic,

I am the coach. We have been runner's up at our state champs in XC the last two years. I am a young coach(5th year coaching) who has NOT seen this in any of my other runners. My kids do not come to this site as far as I know. I'm sorry that you feel like I'm an asshole, but I'm trying to help this kid overcome his problem with racing. I am critical of him, because that is part of being a coach. He has the potential to run faster than he has, but the pieces of the puzzle don't fit during races. If you have any real advice on helping him, please reply. Otherwise, quit wasting space on one of the few real running threads on this message board. Thank you.

" I am critical of him, because that is part of being a coach"

____________________________________________________________

If you are the coach, and he is doing what you tell him to do and it is not working, how can you criticize him? You have to critique what you are having him do.

There are a few possibilities. One, he is racing his workouts and is not fresh for races. Also, when racing his workouts, no one is challenging him. During races, of course, he is challenged and with tired legs he is mentally broken. Another could be his workouts are too slow and the mileage is too high. As an example, the local high school last season had a 14:37 5K runner (track) and he was doing 60-65 miles per week. This school has been ranked as high as 10th in the country in XC.

Your runner is probably feeling very low. But as his coach,

his success or failure is based on your coaching.

I just emailed a very detailed reply but it didn't go through and I lost it all. So I will write this in a brief version. Base mileage he is doing now is great, but starting 6-7 weeks working backwards from the State Meet his mileage needs to be around 30-37 miles with the last two at 20-30. It takes athletes with big bases a long time to reach a peak. Athletes that come out for track with no conditioning peak easy with just a few days rest, but the athlete you have probably has never even known what it is like to race fresh. I have tried to peak athletes for our state meet to only have them run their best times four weeks later (competing each week). Their mileage was 20-25 miles the last six weeks and 28-42 the six weeks before that (base work of 55-75 miles for four months). When you cut back on an athletes' miles their performance will stay the same or even get slower. It actually takes the body 1-2 weeks to be able to use the rest to benefit the body. The third and fourth week the times start to get faster. But I believe it takes a long time for the body to display the results warranted. Your athletes works so hard but hard work is the equvalent of no training if over done or not given the amount of rest needed to allow the results to show. The other thing the better the base of an athlete the easier they recover and are able to hammer the workouts. That is a by product of his training base. But he can't utilize the base because his mileage is constantly high and a race becomes another workout. He always is consistant, but never anything great. I encourage you to give it a shot- you won't believe the results. The thing is you have to stick with the plan, you will think your over resting them and that they will peak too early, but the results will get better each week. The other problem you will have is convincing your athlete to reduce the mileage.

I think I coach the same kid: handles mileage great (70-80 mpw), looks great in practice, pulls workouts through but can't race to what seems like his potential. (He runs approx. 1000=2:42; 1600=4:35; 3200=9:50's; 5k=16:12).

Let me tell how we have handled the problem. Most of the replies seem to suggest that you are throwing too much volume at him and too late in the season. This is certainly a possibility. I would add that the opposite might also be true. He might be better suited for longer races. His strength (6xmile at 5:20 pace?) suggests that he might do really well if you ran him in some races over 5k. We have "raced" our kid in everything from 8k's to 8 mile trail races. These are inevitably lower stress races where he relaxes and runs much better. We don't do them often or late in the season but they have helped his confidence tremendously. Plus, it puts him into the mindset to think long term. I care as much as the next coach about winning the state championship but your (and my) runner's success may come much later. I would equip him with the base and the mindset that improvement is slow, long-term, and that there are no short cuts. If he PR's this year but quits running in four more because he can't get any better then neither of us have won.

I would tell you to email me if you want but the email is shut down right now because AOL sucks. If you want, I could email you in a few days with my new address.

Much good advice here. I just want to emphasize that as a 5th year coach you should be proud of your success to date. Stay patient and positive with the runners and yourself! It's great that you are asking these questions and your runners are lucky that you care.

I referenced this discussion at Cool Running. Check for responses here:

http://www.coolrunning.com/forums/Forum7/HTML/001891.shtml

Some other thoughts: everyone's talking about training and the kid's head, but there are other factors as well. If your team has been runner-up twice, you're doing SOMETHING right when it comes to training. Look at his times in other meets during the year: how do they compare to the previous year? Was this a "one meet" thing, or was he off the whole season? Then consider that there are many other factors not being mentioned here. How's his nutrition? He's cranking out the miles, but how's the quality of his refueling going? Is he eating enough protein (you've go to give those ribosomes something to work with if you want him to recover) or enough iron? Both of those could hold you back. How about "life" stress? Family? Job? Girlfriend? High stress classes (AP, Etc.)? Any one of those things can hold you back. So can a growth spurt. Look at the whole kid. The answer might not be in his training.

And don't forget SLEEP. It's a huge issue amongst teenagers, most of whom are chronically sleep deprived. And runners need even more. Nutrition and sleep ... two components I wish I had paid more attention to as a youth.

Maybe mentally, he's not up for the challenge of the longer races, yet. Or maybe he is a little burned out on the longer races. Why not, move him down to the 800 for the indoor season to see how he likes it. It may provide a refreshing change of pace for your young runner.

Of course, you know him better and perhaps he doesn't have the speed. But he's definitely got the base.

H.S. Coach, my email is back up if you want to contact me.

One more thought. In high school kids mature physically on their own time tables, which are not necessarily perfectly linear. His training may be fine and his attitude may be fine, but his body might be putting energy into a growth process that does not immediately translate into improved running performance. If you believe that you are doing the right things, then stay on course and be patient. Life is longer than a couple of high school runniing seasons.

Coach: my kids ran for Joe Newton at York High School in Elmhurst, IL, and I am sure you know that Joe uses a high mileage approach, which for my kids resulted in some summer weeks of 120+ miles, and which led to 3 straight 1000+ summer miles. But this was summer training. By the time season started, the miles were brought down a bit, and the week was organized to taper appropriately. Mondays were always the hard workout day, with 3 mile warm up, 25x400 with one minute intervals, and 3 mile cool down after 10x100. It got easier as the week went on. Importanlty, Newton races the team as little as he can- only enough to meet state requirements- are you over-racing your kids? Newton would run 5 duals (wtih two duals coming in one race with 3 teams), and 2 major invites- Palatine and Peoria (which is on the state meet course), plus sectional, regional and state. Other teams may have run 12 races or more before they got to state.

It seems to me that your runner is in many ways fairly typical of hs runners with some potential- some will develop quickly and others do not. He has the base, no question. But he may be more suited to the longer runs of college. My kids never ran better than 2.00 800, 4.30 1600 and 9.40 3200 in hs, with a best time for 3 mile xc of 15.08- but in college, at 8k they went 26 and low change, and at 10k went 31.26 for D3 colleges (and had very decent 5k times, but did not run the 1500 well at all- they were built for distance). One won the Mad City Marathon in Madison, WI last May; he is now aged 22.

I also wonder if he is spooked at meets. A bit of psychology needed?