which first, speed or distance?

I'm a huge fan of high volume, but I never advocate giving someone something they can't handle. You need to gauge where all these individuals are coming from, and how you can take them along. It doesn't make sense to say: All freshmen, you must be able to do exactly the same thing -- because they all have different backgrounds.

Usually, a 10mi/wk/yr increase is reasonable.

don't get me wrong trachead, i love some of your stuff, but you can't just "get speed" 3 weeks out from race time like most people think, not saying you think this.

mattallenjones is correct.

again , i say, trackhead, you can't go 48-50 in the quarter can you?

:)

jjk,

I've always advocated hitting all energy systems year-round. I've never trained, or advised the idea of not hitting different levels of intensity at all times of the year.

My point of view was: If you want to run 100mi/wk average 6min a mile (real elite stuff, for ex.) then you should probably worry about sustaining that high average and then worry about the pace -- rather than than the other way around.

JJK, my base training that I'd advise for most athletes would include weekly basic speed work, a lactate threshold session, hill running and specific work (1500/3k/5k, etc).

forgot to add: no can't run 48 for 400m, likely for 300m, but you could have Clyde Hart coach me for 10 years and I still want get within 5 seconds of 50flat. That's just how I'm built, and we both know that there are people with those fibres and people without.

Here's a base week that looks good to me for a high end distance runner:

Sun: 120-180min Long run, 20% of the week

Mon: AM easy 40-60min

PM 20min warmup, 16x60m @ 400m effort w/ 340m jog + push-ups, sit-ups, drills, bounding, etc. 20min cooldown

Tue: AM easy 40-60min

PM: 20min warmup, drills, 45min @ HM-MPace, 20min cooldown

Wed: AM easy 40-60min

PM 60-75min

Thu: AM easy 40-60min

PM 20min warmup, drills, 20x200m @ goal 1500m pace w/ 90/75/60s 200m jog, 20min cooldown

Fri: 60min run

Sat: 75-90min over hills

There are different theories on this. I say most do base before speed, but I am not sure. I also hear about people doing speed earlier, was that Lebid or Baldini? Or maybe it was Portuguese runnerse like Rui Silva?

I'm not sure

Renato Canova wrote:

When we speak about African runners we must think that, normally, the best athletes are able to start their official athletic careers from a level of 90% of their final performance because they are already well prepared, without official coaches, using at home the most important type of training for a distance runner: long runs (from 5 to 12-15 km), very fast.

Through this type of training the most talented runners are able to greatly improve their ANAEROBIC THRESHOLD, building a special MAX LASS, that is very difficult to reach with Caucasian runners from western countries. This is due to a lack of natural power – endurance for the natural training done during the first 12 – 15 years of life.

first of all, thanks for all the advice, this was my first time posting a question on here to start a thread, and it's one of the most informative threads i've read on here. I am in college now, so i am not too worried about how a child should be raised with speed work (though i may be soon should i take up coaching), but I guess I am still pretty young in my running career. The stuff were doing now, after a high volume cross season, has come down to 4 x 400's or 2x200 plus 2 x 400's... stuff in that range... with a hard distance run and a speedwork day per week. but the speedwork is kinda weird, like 10 times 100 metres, which I would think would be too much, yes?

I find it interesting how a 200-400 type has such dramatically different training from an 400-800 type, even though they may both concentrate on the same event (the 400). I guess there are different approaches to it. The reason I say this is I am stuck on the cusp of it too, and have done some sessions with the sprint group and some with the distance group (we only have two groups, we don't have a middle distance group as it's a small club).

Speed-distance, I think whether the 10*100 is too much depends on:

how fast you're running them

the recovery between

I wouldn't see it as too much for pure speedwork if the emphasis is on form and relaxing, and there's a big recovery between them. But then, I'm no coach, so you may do well to head the others' advice!

jjk wrote:

don't get me wrong trachead, i love some of your stuff, but you can't just "get speed" 3 weeks out from race time like most people think, not saying you think this.

mattallenjones is correct.

again , i say, trackhead, you can't go 48-50 in the quarter can you?

:)

From the 800 on up, Lydiard professes that it takes around 4-5 weeks of speedwork for you to gain top end speed specific to your event (800, 1500, 5K, whatever you're focusing your training on.)

If you would watch a race with a Lydiard trained athlete or even an athlete who trained using Lydiard-type training, you'd notice that. Take Viren's final lap in the 1972 Olympic 5K and 10K. Viren had nowhere near the finishing speed of at least 75-80% of the runners in the field with him, but he destroys them in the final lap, specifically the final 100-125 meters, in which he is pulling away from everyone.

High mileage allows a middle distance guy to do MORE QUALITY workouts later in the season...more/longer/faster repetitions with less recovery than an athlete who may be able to run a 400 faster than the higher mileage guy, but can't run even half as many because he has no endurance or stamina.

Both are important and should be worked on throughout the entire season, but ANYONE WHO HAS READ ANYTHING AT ALL ABOUT PERIODIZATION SHOULD KNOW THAT YOU START WITH HIGHER QUANITITY & LOW INTENSITY AND PROGRESS TO LOWER VOLUME & HIGHER INTENSITY. That's a basic fundamental principle of ANY sport in general, not just running.

jjk wrote:

don't get me wrong trachead, i love some of your stuff, but you can't just "get speed" 3 weeks out from race time like most people think, not saying you think this.

mattallenjones is correct.

again , i say, trackhead, you can't go 48-50 in the quarter can you?

:)

From the 800 on up, Lydiard professes that it takes around 4-5 weeks of speedwork for you to gain top end speed specific to your event (800, 1500, 5K, whatever you're focusing your training on.)

If you would watch a race with a Lydiard trained athlete or even an athlete who trained using Lydiard-type training, you'd notice that. Take Viren's final lap in the 1972 Olympic 5K and 10K. Viren had nowhere near the finishing speed of at least 75-80% of the runners in the field with him, but he destroys them in the final lap, specifically the final 100-125 meters, in which he is pulling away from everyone.

High mileage allows a middle distance guy to do MORE QUALITY workouts later in the season...more/longer/faster repetitions with less recovery than an athlete who may be able to run a 400 faster than the higher mileage guy, but can't run even half as many because he has no endurance or stamina.

Both are important and should be worked on throughout the entire season, but ANYONE WHO HAS READ ANYTHING AT ALL ABOUT PERIODIZATION SHOULD KNOW THAT YOU START WITH HIGHER QUANITITY & LOW INTENSITY AND PROGRESS TO LOWER VOLUME & HIGHER INTENSITY. That's a basic fundamental principle of ANY sport in general, not just running.

:)[/quote]

High mileage allows a middle distance guy to do MORE QUALITY workouts later in the season.[/quote]

good point

"ANYONE WHO HAS READ ANYTHING AT ALL ABOUT PERIODIZATION SHOULD KNOW THAT YOU START WITH HIGHER QUANITITY & LOW INTENSITY AND PROGRESS TO LOWER VOLUME & HIGHER INTENSITY."

On the contrary drunkenhyena, in your posts you are only addressing distance runners and use a 10k runner as an example while the original post is addressing the 400 and 800. To use an exaggerated example of Lydiard's '4-5 weeks to max speed' theory; An accomplished marathon runner will need 0-1 week to go from base to the necessary speed of a world record performance (most 2:30 marathoners can run a 1 mile run at 1:50 marathon pace), but an accomplished 100 meter runner would need years of speed-only training to run even 30meters at 9.5 pace. The shorter the distance, the longer it takes to build the necessary speed and more time needs to be devoted to speed at the expense of endurance. The 400 and 800 are short events in the Track and Field world, 10k speedwork and development is in no way applicable.

And what is "higher volume and low intensity" to the 400 meter runner? 500meter intervals at 800m pace? Does this really count as 'high volume'? And what would a transition to 'lower volume and higher intensity look like? 100 meter intervals at 200 meter pace? I believe this would be an attempt at applying distance running principles to sprinting, not a blueprint for success.

Certainly, as was stated earlier, endurance will help sprinters recover faster, thereby allowing less recovery time between fast intervals and maximizing the work done at anaerobic levels. However, I could go out today and do 12x400 in 75s with 1s recovery (can't get much less recovery than that), but would it really help my 400? Of course not, the benefits of a short recovery are only applicable if you can already run faster than race pace. Once you have the necessary speed, then let's drop the recovery. And the sky's the limit, the more endurance an athlete can get and still maintain speed the better it will be for them, but endurance alone is useless in a 400m.

If you look at Clyde Hart's training theories (

http://www.nacactfca.org/articles/Hart-eng.htm

), he has his guys running up to 45 minutes at a time early in the pre-season, as well as workouts such as a 30 minute fartlek or 6 x 800 meters on a cross country or golf course. He acknowledges this isn't done all season long, but it is used to establish a base "in order that they can improve their oxygen uptake so that their recovery time between efforts will be cut to a minimum." I'd say Coach Hart knows what he is talking about, having coached Michael Johnson and Jeremy Wariner both to Olympic gold in the 400.

Read this quote from Hart:

"Generally the outstanding 400 meter runner will have approximately a one second deferential between their best open 200 meters and the time it takes them to run the first 200 meters of the 400 meter dash. The less experienced 400 meter runner should have approximately a two‑second deferential. A good formula for predicting the potential 400 meter time for 200 meter runners, providing they are willing to train and to give all they can to become a top 400 meter runner, would be to double the time of their best open 200 meters then add 3.5 seconds to this. It is obvious that the sprinter type has the advantage through the early stages of the 400 meters; however, if they are not trained properly, this advantage can melt away in a hurry toward the end of the race."

Basically, a sprinter type 400 guy who has a decent endurance base built up, but who has the same basic raw speed of the guy he is running against who has very little aerobic endurance background will be able to maintain his form better through the final 100-200 meters of the race.

I hope it didn't sound like I was advocating for a quarter miler to train like a 10K guy, but runs of up to 30, 45, maybe even 60 minutes once or twice a week VERY early on in the season will help a quarter miler with his hard workouts down the road, as well as his races.

Also from that same article from the post above, this shows the split of the different types of workouts throughout the entire season:

Percentage of Emphasis Chart For Workouts

Types of Workouts Fall Early Mid Late

Speed Endurance 75 90 100 100

Tempo Endurance 100 100 100 75

Strength Endurance 100 90 80 70

Endurance Running 100 20 10 5

Power Speed 20 60 70 80

Event Runs 25 90 100 100

Strength 100 100 100 100

This also shows that you should be working on various types of workouts throughout the season, not just one, two or half of them at a time.

base building into the season

then get into speed workouts right away in season such as 400's and 500's

then work up to miles and 1000's

then true speed sparingly 200's, ladders, etc

then back to the speed workouts of 400's, 600's etc.

This is for a 1500/3000 simply put