Utah State Record Team DQed Unjustly When Evidence Shows Wrong Call Was Made

It would help if you quoted what the 'existing rules' are that you are referring to.

IAAF rules say a protest can be filed within 30 minute of the posting of official results. You can submit any information (such as video or photographic evidence) to support this appeal.

See rule 146:

http://www.iaaf.org/download/download?filename=89ed4cba-6b5e-49fe-a43e-9f5487b77a84.pdf&urlslug=IAAF%20Competition%20Rules%202016-2017%2C%20in%20force%20from%201%20November%202015

Most organizations refund protest fees on a successful appeal.

Does your organization have different rules?

Did you wait more than 30 minutes to appeal?

High school associations don't follow IAAF rules, they make their own. And in most cases, their own rules are ridiculous and pointless.

Well that sucks.

They use different rules (NFHS) that like the last poster said are pointless. We protested immediately but no evidence is looked at. We just wrote down what our issue was and then we got shot down. I always thought rules should ensure fair competition but it seems like this rule prevented fair competition from occuring.

I just replied to him. I happen to know the Hunter family and was pretty sad when I read about this from Iain's post. I am glad you are trying to get national support for this. If anyone else wants a template feel free to use mine or change it:Ryan,I hope you are recovering from a long weekend at the state meet. As a fan of track and field I must say I was disappointed with the judgement call that was made about the Provo HS girls team concerning their state record. In a digital age, all evidence should be used in an appeal. Even if this is not changed for them, please consider changing the rule going forward. Utah is a fantastic state for distance running and such a silly situation should not be what puts Utah in the national spotlight. Thank you for your time and consideration,

Bizarre. Given that the rules prevent evidence-based overturning of a call, you'd think that the officials would err on the side of NOT calling the foul in a close call situation.

Assuming this meet was run under NFHS rules, I can't imagine what you could mean by "we had evidence" that is relevant to an official decision on the track. It's very explicit in the rule book:

- 3-2-5-7: "Video replay or television monitoring equipment, other than the official finish line equipment approved by the games committee prior to the start of competition, shall not be used to make decisions related to the meet."

- 3-2-5-8b: "Electronic devices shall not be used for any review of an official's decision."

- 3-5-4: "Situations that are not subject to protest:

a. Any judgement decision pertaining to violations or alleged violations of the rules."

Officials get things wrong at every level. Pretty much like every other sport in high school (and even at higher levels, except for very specific categories of replay review allowed in televised college and pro sports), you don't have any recourse under the rules when this happens. I haven't looked at rule books in other sports, but the high school track & field rule book makes it clear that it doesn't matter if you have video showing clearly the call was wrong.

I'm a long way from Utah, but I've dealt with enough HS athletic administrators to know that their response is almost certainly:

- the rule book is cut-and-dried on this issue;

- learning to live with the mistakes humans make is part of being involved in sports;

- they are never going to touch the question of second-guessing officials;

- this discussion was over days ago.

And I'm not saying in any way you are wrong about the action that occurred on the track (I have no way of knowing, but assume you wouldn't be bringing this up here if you weren't sure of yourself.) But officials make mistakes, sometimes they determine championships. It's happened to lots of people in lots of sports in lots of states over lots of years, and there's nothing you can do about it.

It does sound like there is nothing that can be done for this team. But, there CAN be a push for system reform / rule changes that allow for evidence to be evaluated in a protest. THIS is why people should be sending messages to the Contact provided. Change the rule so that rulings that are clearly in the wrong - as viewed here - can be made right.

Memphian wrote:

there CAN be a push for system reform / rule changes that allow for evidence to be evaluated in a protest. THIS is why people should be sending messages to the Contact provided. Change the rule so that rulings that are clearly in the wrong - as viewed here - can be made right.

As a long-time high school coach I disagree. Videos and pictures can be very misleading and produce very different evidence depending upon the angles and views. One particular case of video evidence is far from clear.

You stated "CLEARLY wrong" and I agree with that notion, but are officials supposed to view every video handed to them by parents, coaches, fans, and athletes? I could live with meet management having their own videos of the finish line, exchange zones, and field events, but agreeing to view one handed to them from someone else is a slippery slope with many potentially negative unintended consequences.

I'm curious - how can video possibly be misleading? It is an exact replica of what the judge's own eyes would have viewed with the added benefit that it can be slowed down or repeatedly watched, etc. What you said does not obey any logic. It is clearly better to have supporting evidence than to exclude it.

You're right that nothing will probably happen but should nothing happen? Per the NFHS rules I don't have evidence but in a court of law I would and any seeing the picture would know they were wrong. Unfortunately the entire result of the race was affected by this call which I will admit was a close one watching it live. But I owe it to my girls to put up a fight because there isn't a good reason for them not to be declared the champions.

crete wrote:

I'm curious - how can video possibly be misleading? It is an exact replica of what the judge's own eyes would have viewed with the added benefit that it can be slowed down or repeatedly watched, etc. What you said does not obey any logic. It is clearly better to have supporting evidence than to exclude it.

Have you ever watched the NFL? One angle and a receiver is CLEARLY out-of-bounds, yet another angle and they are CLEARLY in-bounds. And those are professional high grade cameras placed at a predetermined angles.

I have a video from a cross country meet with athletes running next to a lake less than a foot from the water. In reality, they are on top of a dam and over 60 meters from the water.

I agree in theory of getting it right, but looking at mama's video from the front of the concession stand is not the way to go in my eyes.

Moody Coach wrote:

But I owe it to my girls to put up a fight .

There IS a good reason why your girls did not win, correct or not, BUT

hang on to the part of your quote above. You do owe it to them and keep fighting. With that attitude I assume you are a good coach. Fight on.

@Just The Facts: I appreciate what you're saying about officials not being able to sit there and review hundreds of decisions and look at videos from every parent's iphones. No one is saying that is what should happen.

The situation is that an official coach needs to file the protest, it costs $50 and has to be done within 30-minutes of the finish. Given that, most coaches are not going to file the protest and submit evidence unless they feel strongly that the official made the wrong call. Also, you seem to be implying that coaches might try to deceitfully manipulate photos/videos before submitting them. That of course could happen, but with only a 30-minute window after the race to file a protest, it's not likely.

In the end, we at LetsRun have always felt that the officials should not be determining the outcome of the races; the athletes should. So in an instance where it's highly debatable whether an athlete/team should have been DQed (and in this instance I don't know how you can even argue they should have been based on the photo), then the officials should error on the side of caution and not DQ.

So there's a photo of one of the three handoffs. Where are the photos of the other two?

And also, where is the proof this photo was taken during this meet? During this event? At the time of infraction?

This is why only official video/images can and should be used for overturning official calls.

ready for liftoff wrote:

And also, where is the proof this photo was taken during this meet? During this event? At the time of infraction?

This is why only official video/images can and should be used for overturning official calls.

^Utah track official

whaaaaat? wrote:

ready for liftoff wrote:

And also, where is the proof this photo was taken during this meet? During this event? At the time of infraction?

This is why only official video/images can and should be used for overturning official calls.

^Utah track official

Nope! Just someone looking at a slightly blurry, slightly off-balance, slightly fisheyed photo posted with no context.

What I'm not seeing are the other two handoffs.

If you look at one parent's video, haven't you opened yourself to look at all provided?

I did not mean to imply that coaches would present something deceitful. I do not think this. But is this something to consider?

Whether the DQ should have been called or not, was not in question. I saw the question as whether meet management should have viewed a coach's video, from whatever source it originated. I am simply giving an opinion that agreeing to view outside videos from anyone other than meet management has more flaws than positives, intended or not.