Makhloufi destroying workouts

+1

Wait wait wait... Are people really buying Renato's argument or is this just a bunch of trolls?

There is NO WAY someone can actually believe that:

1) A whole group of people (elite Kenyan runners) is immune to pharmacology.

2) Elite Kenyan runners are significantly (key word) different from the rest of the population.

3) A study would have been performed that looked at ONLY elite Kenyan runners....

Renato, please look at the science around genetic variance between and within population groups and you'll understand that there is more variability within a group then between groups. What that means is, there could be much greater variability between 2 Kenyan neighbors than between a Kenyan and a Swede.

Interesting Stuff wrote:

Wait wait wait... Are people really buying Renato's argument or is this just a bunch of trolls?

There is NO WAY someone can actually believe that:

1) A whole group of people (elite Kenyan runners) is immune to pharmacology.

2) Elite Kenyan runners are significantly (key word) different from the rest of the population.

3) A study would have been performed that looked at ONLY elite Kenyan runners....

Renato, please look at the science around genetic variance between and within population groups and you'll understand that there is more variability within a group then between groups. What that means is, there could be much greater variability between 2 Kenyan neighbors than between a Kenyan and a Swede.

Wait wait wait...Are people really buying that Kenyans are the only ones doping because of lack of OOC tests?

1) who is more likely to be doping, some person in the middle if nowhere or a person being coached by a coach who has had his athlete busted for doping while he was their coach and who also tested drugs on his own son? I would say that they are both doped

2) everyone other than Americans and Mo Farah are doping it's just that the Americans and Mo are working harder and therefore are capable of beating all the dopers.

3) Why is it so hard to believe that a group or groups of people could be more genetically predisposed to perform well at a certain sport? African Americans/descendants of West Africa dominate sprints for genetic reasons, why is it so hard to imagine that East Africans can dominate distance running doped or not doped for genetic reasons. There will certainly be exceptions (Wariner, Lemaitre) but that's the way things go. Sorry pal, if you wanna cheer white guys watch hockey and golf.

They aren't in the middle of nowhere you fool. epo isn't some expensive super drug. Plus these guys are millionaires in their countries!

Metric Miler wrote:Running 1:43 at 19 could just as easily be a sign of doping from teenage years. His 800m has not improved

you really have no clue about Asbel

look at 17'50 in for 800 race where Asbel crushes nijel in 1'43.3

work out how much extra he ran wide on bends & for the jogging start & celebrating at the end ?

then tell us how much faster than his 1'43.1pb that run was for route-1 from gun tight in lane-1 with fast start ?

Asbel was only in 3'28+ shape that year

ventolin^3 wrote:

Metric Miler wrote:Running 1:43 at 19 could just as easily be a sign of doping from teenage years. His 800m has not improved

you really have no clue about Asbel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mK2Ixmn74JY

look at 17'50 in for 800 race where Asbel crushes nijel in 1'43.3

work out how much extra he ran wide on bends & for the jogging start & celebrating at the end ?

then tell us how much faster than his 1'43.1pb that run was for route-1 from gun tight in lane-1 with fast start ?

Asbel was only in 3'28+ shape that year

Ventolin, your schtick is getting old.

At 6 feet plus and 120 lbs Kiprop is never going to get off the line as fast guys like Amos so the jogging start you are talking about is really just what Kiproip is. Kiprop is never any wider than outside of lane 1 on any of the turns in that race. He might be as wide as outside of lane 2 on some of the straightaways but has clear path the whole trip. Kiprop goes out in a relaxed but honest 25.x through 200 and hits 400 in approx 50.5 (rabbit went through in 49.9)

He takes the lead with 200 to go and has to work to hold off Amos until the last 15 meters pulling up only slightly in the last two or three strides.

In other posts you scream and shout about Rudisha's suicidal 23.x first 200 and lack of rabbit for windbreak in London 2012. In this race, Kiprop goes out smoothly, gets some drafting advantage and gets the lead exactly when you want it for unimpeded running. Kiprop's "celebration" might have cost him two tenths of a second maybe. Add another very speculative three tenths for two yards lost on slightly wide turns and straightaway manuevering and you have half a second total or 1:42.85. (Personally I don't think Kiprop could have gone anymore than a tenth or two faster on the day.) Regardless, Kiprop is in reality a 1:43 flat 800 man which is pretty incredible in its own right given his build.

ventolin^3 wrote:

Metric Miler wrote:Running 1:43 at 19 could just as easily be a sign of doping from teenage years. His 800m has not improved

you really have no clue about Asbel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mK2Ixmn74JY

look at 17'50 in for 800 race where Asbel crushes nijel in 1'43.3

work out how much extra he ran wide on bends & for the jogging start & celebrating at the end ?

then tell us how much faster than his 1'43.1pb that run was for route-1 from gun tight in lane-1 with fast start ?

Asbel was only in 3'28+ shape that year

Ventolin, your schtick is getting old.

At 6 feet plus and 120 lbs Kiprop is never going to get off the line as fast guys like Amos so the jogging start you are talking about is really just what Kiproip is. Kiprop is never any wider than outside of lane 1 on any of the turns in that race. He might be as wide as outside of lane 2 on some of the straightaways but has clear path the whole trip. Kiprop goes out in a relaxed but honest 25.x through 200 and hits 400 in approx 50.5 (rabbit went through in 49.9)

He takes the lead with 200 to go and has to work to hold off Amos until the last 15 meters pulling up only slightly in the last two or three strides.

In other posts you scream and shout about Rudisha's suicidal 23.x first 200 and lack of rabbit for windbreak in London 2012. In this race, Kiprop goes out smoothly, gets some drafting advantage and gets the lead exactly when you want it for unimpeded running. Kiprop's "celebration" might have cost him two tenths of a second maybe. Add another very speculative three tenths for two yards lost on slightly wide turns and straightaway manuevering and you have half a second total or 1:42.85. (Personally I don't think Kiprop could have gone anymore than a tenth or two faster on the day.) Regardless, Kiprop is in reality a 1:43 flat 800 man which is pretty incredible in its own right given his build.

Stereotype wrote:

They aren't in the middle of nowhere you fool. epo isn't some expensive super drug. Plus these guys are millionaires in their countries!

Correct.

Jens Hermens is the manager of Makhloufi and was the manager of Genzebe Dibaba in the past. He is also the manager Eliud Kipchoge, Geb, Bekele, Kamworor, Sifan Hissan, Faith Kipyegon and many other famous runners.

Frederico Rosa, the manager of Asbel Kiprop, Rita Jeptoo and many other famous runners... has purchased his OWN expensive blood testing machine for his personal use with his athletes at his 5 training camps in Kenya.

I think that Frederico Rosa and Rita Jeptoo also have enough money for running water and electricity in Kenya.

no

your razor is blunted

the reason why performances increased so markedly in early '90s was that track became a proper pro sport with decent $

because of this many european managers went to east africa to help set up camps & find talent

the amount of running talent recruited in early '90s was huge level beyond the scarce east africans running prior

go check the elite M's of new york, boston, london, etc before early-'90s & after

a vast amount of running talent turned up when the sport became pro

no

learn about diamond league

the onus is to win not chase times as accumulated points win

the paris-'12 5k with 6 guys < 12'50 & even then not great pace in 4th km shows that talent level is hugely better in depth than '90s & yes, given right race the 5k wr couda gone in '12 & certainly plenty of guys near/at 12'40

the 10k is an extinct race on the circuit so wr chasing has no opportunity

see above

geb-2 ran 12'46 with 54+ finish with wide running both bends !!! worth probably 53+ if route-1

he had 12'35 in him that day if pace had been smoothly run to ~ 11'35 to the bell but pacing was poor after 3k but not as bad as usual rubbish in myriad 12'50+s

10k is extince now

Kamwo coud probably run 26'10 in cardiff shape

when/where is he going to find a meet set-up with 13'05 pacer ??

no

conclusion is that 5k on circuit is more about winning than clock

10k is extinct race on elite circuit

seeing as there were no east africans cycling in '90s or now, your conclusion is flawed

how much has east african cycling improved from '80s to today ???

so is powerball jackpot win

read above for 5k & 10k situation today

only on minor points

much more speedwork compared to '80s & huge more talent pool recruited as now proper pro sport

5k wr couda gone in '12 & Kamwo can break 10k wr if he gets right set-up

see above

talent to break 5k wr was there in '12 but race too slow to bell

10k wr can go if Kamwo takes serious shot

I have not had enough caffeine yet today.

He is Jos Hermens... not Jens Hermens... and by the way... you are a real MoRan!!!

No. You are incorrect.

In reality...You are beyond stupid. You show severe cognitive impairment and weak mind disease. Some people might even call you "retarded".

I will also call you rude.

Let me try to make it clear for you Mr. smarty pants:

In my opinion, Paula Radcliffe and Wang Junxia were not really the best, naturally talented female distance runners in the last 13 or 23 years, respectively.

Their world records still stand today because they were both cheating by DOPING...which is why NONE of the naturally talented Kenyan and Ethiopian female runners in the last 13 or 23 years have been able to beat the world records held by Paula Radcliffe and Wang Junxia.

If they were both DOPING then that means that the statements of Renato Canova about both Paula Radcliffe and Wang Junxia being clean would also be WRONG.

Do you get it now?

Can you understand that statement or not?

barrios certainly not despite 27-low for wr

10k was p!ss-weak then

26'17 still doesn't compare with 1'40.9 solo or 3'26.00

aouita was for 1500

in his 3'29.7 behind cram he ran ridiculous ~ 12m extra & still with 52+ finish

he was likely in ~ 3'26-high - 3'27-low shape that day

he was nowhere near as good at 5k despite 5k wr

because he was far better at 1500 than 5k but 5k was p!ss-weak back in '80s

go check now what 3'29.7 or 3'27-low or 3'26-high is = to on iaaf tables for 5k ?

aouita coud challenged Asbel over 1500 in a fast race

he was that good over 1500

you certainly don't

i have never seen such a poor analogy

poor analogy

exactly coud be said as regards money & talent for 800 / 1500 / 5k

apart from pacers are generally far poorer than '90s :

canova has already said promoters pay peanuts for pacers nowdays compared to '90s for 1500/5k races

it ends up with limited clockings

fact is she was paced by kenyan males & had huge helping wind

0 wind & female only pacers, she wouda gone 2"17+, just slightly faster than best of today

eh ?

that is the "wall"

the M has all about been about handling the "wall"

the M is "all defining" as it is more than 90'

it clearly isn't

otherwise eliud who looks in 2"01+ shape on berlin course in warm weather with fast pacing to 30k wouda run ~ 26-flat in '12 if he was doping

no

then there woud be hugely abnormal TSH & possibly deranged LFTs/U+Es

do you know what the blood-passport is for ???

your opinions although not great before have now become valueless

alan webb ran 3'46+

you think he was doping ???

thank you for saving me time/effort of pointing it out

then answer $64k question

why are 3'48 / 13'00 / 27'00 the "clean limits" when even iaaf tables don't have them as = performances ???

some do

no

he has acknowledged if you give enough dope times will improve

it however takes lot more dope to speed up an east african

that is nuance he missed

i have

this clearly shows you have not followed the sport, meaning watched & analysed the races but just looked at stats

mo wouda been huge threat to 7'20 last year & was capable of 3'27-flat if he'd run that 3'28.9 with ideal pacing/drafting to bell

his 5k wouda been ~ 12'37/12'38 but it wouda needed perfect races

however, 3'27.0 / 7'19 wouda truped 12'37

not entirely

huge amount of 10k talent at M

huge amount of talent at 1500

only 5k today can be said to "weak" albeit just in '12 it was hugely strong

but they don't bother

if you listened to canova you wouda known that the promoters pay peanuts now for pacing to 3k

that's why we get rubbish 7'45/7'50 pace nowdays instead of needed 7'37/7'40

the paris-'12 race was only fast because isiah tried suicidally to make some pace in 4th km in absurd attempt to "hurt" pack but just hurt himself but got 6 guys < 12'50 !!!

they certainly were

flat-out in paris-'12, the times shouda been for top-6 :

~ 12'35 - 12'43

peanuts paid for pacers nowdays in 5k

flawed

badly

no consideration of actual race analyses

your logic was poor, your biology no improvement

it is when difference between 12'45 & 13'05 is nothing providing win is achieved

diamond leagie is about winning

only if you look at bare stats & make no effort to analyse races or circumstances around them such as pacing, etc

epo has little to do with today's clockings

see immediately above

you haven't thought hard enough or alternatively done enough research

Yes, I can understand that you saying that Renato thinks Wang Junxia was clean is proof that you are either A) Stupid beyond reason or B) doing it on purpose/trolling.

You clearly have an obsession with his posts so you will have read his follow up to his 'two heart' post confirming that it was a joke!

Really, really dumb argument. The 800 and 1500 are as fast or faster than they were during the epo era, and the marathon is 1000x faster. Unless you have evidence that epo helps the 5k and 10k more than the 800, 1500, or marathon then I'd shut up.

Interesting Stuff wrote:

Wait wait wait... Are people really buying Renato's argument or is this just a bunch of trolls?

There is NO WAY someone can actually believe that:

1) A whole group of people (elite Kenyan runners) is immune to pharmacology.

2) Elite Kenyan runners are significantly (key word) different from the rest of the population.

3) A study would have been performed that looked at ONLY elite Kenyan runners....

1) I think that the 'whole group' Renato is talking about here is in fact a very small group. His definition of 'top Kenyan' seems somewhat different to many other peoples.

It seems somewhat logical to me that there would be an upper limit for certain parameters and it seems his opinion is that limit has been reached through other conditions (living in altitude with 'correct' training.)

2) It seems that it is irrelevant that they are Kenyan - and it is more the fact that this group of Kenyans meet the other conditions necessary. IE it would be possible for another Nationality to meet the same criteria under the same circumstances??

As for your final point I think that that is exactly what Renato is requesting...

you claim to have watched everything on satellite, yet you don't know that the circuit was professionalized in the early 1980s? In 1981, Coe forced major rules changes that essentially made the athletes professionals and he was already getting $10,000 appearance fees or more for meets, as I linked in a previous thread about Firenze. There was a lot of money in the 1980s on the circuit, but it was the EPO years that brought enormous drops in the distances. Marathon timeframes differ in part because of money and far wider availability of lucrative races but also because of the lack of doping controls until recent years. As far as African drug testing goes, we already know about the lack of in-country tests in Kenya, Ethiopia, and others, as well as the rampant corruption and covering up of positive tests on the national and IAAF level in exchange for bribes, but the latest story is that the lab where the African tests for WADA have been sent has been de-certified until (conveniently) after the Olympics. South Africa's lab was where most African nations sent their tests. Well, the lab was not qualified to do them and they'll have to be sent to other continents now. (Good luck with the samples being stored under proper conditions in going from, say, El Doret to Switzerland!). So much for the validity of in country tests in Africa over the years in so far as the lab where they were sent has been de-certified now by WADA.

Stanford Med, Class of 2029 wrote:but runners like Delilah Asiago are no minnows

who ???

Remember her?

no

tell us all about her

She set world records 21 years ago at 4 miles and 12 kilometers

what distances are those of note ???

where do they run 12k instead of 15k ???

with any "12k" wr she shouda got into kenyan 10k team in '95 or '97 or '99

was she in gothenburg or athens or seville 10k ???

In 1999 she flunked a doping-control test

that is 16 or 17y ago

who is this woman & why didn't she run for kenya in track 10k at wc in mid-'90s???

i looked up her stats :

what "shock'n'awe" numbers here to frighten 10k track gals of mid-'90s ???

Just another deluded East African yutz thinking she would be faster on drugs, right?

eh ???

what did she do of note on 10k on track or at 1/2M on roads ???

this woman seems to have broken wrs at distances no one cared a damn about back then & still doesn't today

her 12k wr is 38'23 here on ancient website :

same lists paula as 15k wr at 46'41+

paula's en-route wouda been proportioned 37'20 !!!

over minute quicker in 3k longer race !!!

how utterly crap do you think that 12k wr was ???

her 4mile wr is lot slower than paula's en-route proportioned 4 mile en-route to a 10k wr !!!

whoever this kenyan was, her times are utter rubbish compared to what a top kenyan woud do today