Makhloufi destroying workouts

Just because they are jogging very slowly just before starting the next interval doesn't mean that they jogged that slow for the 200m recoveries. Even if it was 2:00 rest, this workout was done at the end of April, leaving nearly four months of gradually shortening the rests on this workout until time to peak.

Dear MM,

A few comments:

a) You got 100% owned/taken to school by Renato. No, make that 1000%. You will try and deny this left and right, but......it is what it is, you got destroyed. Now go hide under a rock or something.

b) You already admitted that you never even heard of Will Leer. What kind of running fan who frequents letsrun (a US-based site) has not even heard of a guy who has run 3:51 a few times, and regularly ranked near the top of US milers. C'mon, you are not a real fan, don't pretend like you have a clue about T&F.

c) why the hard-on for Makhloufi ???

d) Abe Kiprop won the world jr X-C title (did you even know this?) . This is something that future 10k or marathon stars dominate. He then, a year later, ran 1:43 as a 19 y.o. HE SHOULD BE RUNNING 3;26 YOU GODDAMNED BUFFOON. Those 2 achievements shows an extraordinary combination of aerobic and anaerobic/speed talent/ability. Unless he was on a full-out PED program at that age, he showed at a very young age that 3:26 was his capability.

Now go back to T&F school, you have a lot learning to do before spouting off again on here and exposing yourself as ignorant.

Who is the other guy with him? He was not too far back...

If you think Renato has 'proved' Kenyans aren't doping with his long comment about how he thinks Kenyans are just inherently better than everyone else therefore don't need to dope, then you are the 'buffoon'.

Will Leer was another thread. I did not know who he is no. So what? I'm not American. I don't know every 3:34 runner in the world, neither do you.

I've not backed Makhloufi once. I've tried to get people to explain why Makhloufi gets all the hate and the much faster Kiprop gets all the praise. Feels to me that doping allegations from Letsrun has far more to do with unpopular personalities rather than facts such as coaching/training associations etc.

Where are all the other world junior xc champ turned 3:26 runners? Interesting to me that you don't think teenagers would dope. I see no reason why 1:43 at 19 makes you clean, but 1:43 at 23 makes you dirty. Neither is evidence of anything doping related at all.

Point is, none of you know that either athletes are clean, yet you choose to attack the slower one and praise the faster one from a country with a HISTORY, Renato, of a doping problem. I just find that interesting.

I'll add that personally I do not think that all Kenyans (or athletes from any nation) at the top are doping. I do think that Kenya's success has much to do with the culture of athletics and the ability to bring people out of poverty or make a better life for themselves through running.

Unfortunately the latter point is all about money, and where there is money, there is corruption and cheating. Nobody can argue with that.

For those interested, a short documentary I watched on doping in Kenya not that long ago.

http://vodlocker.com/c7xv8kmlwa5q

Metric Miler wrote:

For those interested, a short documentary I watched on doping in Kenya not that long ago.

http://vodlocker.com/c7xv8kmlwa5q

Metric Miler= #1 troll on Letsrun

Wow , good for you. You watched a documentary and now you are an expert on who is doped and not ? Like Usain Bolt, Asbel Kiprop doesn't look like his competition physically and in Asbel's case has an advantage given his height to weight ratio. This is a far more likely a case for domination of his competition than doping.

He lost all credibility when he had no clue who Will Leer was.

Sorry to enlighten you, pal, but no one at the top of the top can cope without juice.

Metric Miler wrote:Everyone is suspicious of Makhloufi when Kiprop trains in Kenya where EPO is literally available from any doctor for $30

it is beyond belief how lacking you are in knowledge !!!

the cost of a 1ml vial of Aranesp 500mcg suitable for 1 course of doping is cost price of

$1075

any dope-supplier woud expect minumum 50% profit on the above + the considerable acquistion costs as it's got to be smuggled in

a ballpark figure for course of illegally obtained Aranesp is likely

~ $ 2000

what kind of crap do you think you are getting for $ 30 ???

Metric Miler wrote:Where are all the other world junior xc champ turned 3:26 runners?

either running 5k or the roads

go look them up

Interesting to me that you don't think teenagers would dope

do you have any clue about the cost of pharmaceutical grade dope ???

where is a teenager in kenya going to get $ 2000 for it ???

I see no reason why 1:43 at 19 makes you clean

because it is a sign of immense talent

did you not comprehend this ???

he ran 1'43.17 at 19y 10m

he was turning 20 that year so not eligible for junior mark considerations

he ran the fastest ever 800 by a 19y ole at the time, the next quickest being the wjr of kimutai of 1'43.64 ran at 19y 8m but not 20y that year so that was the record

any guy who runs by far, the fastest ever 800 by a 19y ole is destined for incredible feats providing he remains healthy & motivated

get some clue about history of the sport

ventolin^3 wrote:

Metric Miler wrote:Everyone is suspicious of Makhloufi when Kiprop trains in Kenya where EPO is literally available from any doctor for $30

it is beyond belief how lacking you are in knowledge !!!

the cost of a 1ml vial of Aranesp 500mcg suitable for 1 course of doping is cost price of

$1075

any dope-supplier woud expect minumum 50% profit on the above + the considerable acquistion costs as it's got to be smuggled in

a ballpark figure for course of illegally obtained Aranesp is likely

~ $ 2000

what kind of crap do you think you are getting for $ 30 ???

Except that darbepoetin (Aranesp) has a much longer half-life in the body due to differences in glycosylation from regular epoetin that would make it much more likely to test positive on a doping test if using Aranesp. Regular EPO would be preferred and is also much cheaper since the patents have run out on it.

The athlete also might not need to come up with the money for purchase of EPO. Perhaps someone else would have the money for purchase of the EPO for use by the athlete.

Watch the documentary to see cheap. available EPO injections for yourself. Watch an anonymous Kenyan international marathoner state that all the guys are using EPO, himself included.

Are you really going to tell me that Asbel Kiprop can not afford the good stuff?

Another article

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/apr/16/kenyan-epo-tv-documentary-wada

reported similar practices last year. The German ARD documentary released a little while back reported the same thing. Plain old EPO is cheap and effective.

Running 1:43 at 19 could just as easily be a sign of doping from teenage years. His 800m has not improved. WADA stated itself that doping amongst teenagers is of a big concern because they are not tested and use the drugs to break through

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/33646276

I didn't even start on here to say that Kiprop is doping. I came to say there is no reason why Taoufik gets all the heat and the much faster Kiprop or Silas Kiplagat for that matter are praised. It just proves that Letsrun does not care for facts and just accuses those it does not like such as Mo Farah.

I am concerned about the number of people here defending Kenya when it has been highlighted by WADA, the IAAF and the IOC as being a concern or noncompliant. There was no such love for Russia here. Kenya has officially been called out for not controlling their doping problem.

http://www.the-star.co.ke/news/2015/12/12/ioc-wants-out-of-competition-tests-for-russians-kenyans_c1259402?page=0%2C0

According to this article on the suspicious blood test results leaked to The Times , 11% of blood tests from Kenyan athletes were categorized as suspicious whereas, 5% of blood tests from Algerian athletes were suspicious:

http://features.thesundaytimes.co.uk/web/public/2015/the-doping-scandal/index.html#/

To put this into persepective, Kenya, while not at the level as Russia, Morocco, or Turkey, is at the same level as Spain and Holland (2 countries who have been accused on these boards as having a widespread doping culture in their Track and Field athletes) whereas Algeria is at the same level as countries such as Japan, France, Poland, or the USA.

Although Algeria is a North African country, it should probably not be put into the same category as Morocco (for which 24% of blood tests from athletes were suspicious) when it comes to suspected doping in track and field.

It has been pretty much proven that Kenyans have no genetic advantage over Europeans/Americans. All these unknown Kenyans bursting onto the scene with 3:32s and 1:44s, no genetic advantage and all these PEDs. Makes you think don't it!

I don't know how many times I have to explain the same thing : 11% of THE BLOOD TESTS ARE SUSPICIOUS ONLY FOR PEOPLE NOT KNOWING ANYTHING ABOUT THE EFFECTS OF TRAINING FOR TOP ATHLETES BORN, LIVING AND TRAINING IN ALTITUDE.

These values can be suspicious if compared with the only other athletes who were studied : athletes from sea level, spending only short time in altitude.

And these values are suspicious for PHYSIOLOGIST WHO NEVER HAD ANY CLUE ABOUT THE NORMAL VALUES OF TOP KENYAN AND ETHIOPIAN RUNNERS, so are suspicious for people NOT knowing what they are speaking about.

And English Newspapers started a crusade against Kenya using A LOT OF INTERPRETATIONS OF DATA according to somebody acting not as a scientist, but as a CLOWN, well knowing they had to ride the common thoughts, not having any real interest to say the truth.

Nobody denies that there is a problem of doping in Kenya, but this is a doping of low level, used by a very small part of not educated athletes, normally very weak for the Kenyan parameters. And this doping IS NOT CONNECTED WITH EPO OR SIMILAR, BUT WITH STEROIDS that in advanced Countries are no longer used by, at leats, 20 years.

About the documentary, who speaks was not an international athlete, but a FARMER never running at LOCAL level. Seppelt BUILT the case, didn't investigate the case. I had already occasion to say that I appreciate the REAL investigation Seppelt had in Russia (and I went Russia, invited by that Federation, for a clinic in October "in order to explain how it's possible to run fast without taking any doping", because in the athletic world, in spite of what many idiots in LR can think, I'm well known as a coach who NEVER uses any aid from external sources with the athletes I coach), because what he discovered is absolutely truth ; but at the same time I can't accept what he did in Kenya, when went to BUILD with false testimonies a wrong idea about the REAL situation.

When I speak about Kenya and doping, I don't have to defend myself, because I NEVER had any athletes suspected of doping. And I don't have to defend some friend, because some of the athletes have managers that I personally don't know (in some case, I have also bad infos about them).

I, very simply, want that people can know the TRUTH, and can use their brain for building a correct opinion KNOWING THE TRUTH, NOT THE EMOTIONAL REPORTS OF SOME NEWSPAPER LOOKING FOR SCOOPS INSTEAD WRITING THE REALITY (and under this point of view, the English newspapers are the WORST in the world).

We can face every type of problem ONLY knowing the reality, not what we SUPPOSE is the reality. And, how I already said many times, using this behavior, WADA and all tha Antidoping Agencies become the BEST TESTIMONIAL FOR DOPING, overrating the effects on the performances, because all the athletes who well know NEVER can be tested in the future, because weak (amateurs, or veterans, or Young schoolboys), can be stimulated to take some doping for increasing their PB, without risking to be banned.

I'm totally against doping, but I want athletes can know the reality : with steroids, they can increase their muscle strength going at a level NOT REACHABLE WITH TRAINING ONLY, and the effects can last for years.

With Blood doping, we can have very little improvement in case of athletes training at sea level, and NO IMPROVEMENT IN CASE OF ATHLETES TRAINING HARD AND IN PROPER WAY, BORN, LIVING AND TRAINING IN ALTITUDE. So, every athlete included in this category who is caught for blood doping MUST BE BANNED FOR LIFE, but not because he had advantages, but because IS AN IDIOT, taking doping without any real effect.

Dope doesn't work? Kenya doesn't have an EPO problem? Really you haven't been following the news Renato.

Do some research on the availability and prevalence of EPO in Kenya. I'm sure your athletes are clean if you say so, but there are doctors who encourage and offer EPO and other drugs to athletes in Kenya in Eldoret and places where lots of athletes live and train. Where there is money to be made, people take their opportunity. Supply and demand.

EPO works on those BORN and LIVING at altitude:

http://www.runnersworld.com/newswire/study-kenyans-get-performance-boost-from-epo

Once again I don't particularly have an opinion on individuals being clean or dirty, but I find it hilarious that people on this site discount Farah, Makhloufi, Centrowitz, Rupp and others as dirty but consistently applaud the Kenyans/Ethiopians who have been highlighted by WADA as not controlling PED use.

Metric Miler wrote:

Once again I don't particularly have an opinion on individuals being clean or dirty, but I find it hilarious that people on this site discount Farah, Makhloufi, Centrowitz, Rupp and others as dirty but consistently applaud the Kenyans/Ethiopians who have been highlighted by WADA as not controlling PED use.

I agree. I don't get that either. And I'm not American either, which might explain it.

Why does this site hate Mo so much? What evidence is there he is doping? Because his coach might be?

Makhloufi improved out of nowhere. It was more for his devastating kick than anyone else, which suggests he has excellent natural speed. His speed reserve was bigger throughout that final, meaning he was running more comfortably.

Maybe Makhloufi had a bad year with injuries, and leadup to the Olympics was the first tine had a solid leadup. I don't know. Starting doping is one of many reasons why he (or anyone) could improve substantially in one year. Everyone here assume the worst, and the innuendo is not fairly distributed, that's for sure.

None of us know who is doping.

Anyone who thinks Renato says anything credible or authoritative on Kenyans and doping probably has every one of Joel Osteen's DVDs and books, believing them to be the truest of really true word of God.

Renato is a joke. His English has gotten marginally better over the years, but his arguments remain nothing but SHOUTING AND HAND-WAVING AWAY FACTS to make a point, all while jabbering in his charmless and circular way about his own version of the facts.

When news of Kenyans doping first became "big" news, Renato hollered about how, well, maybe a few kind of decent Kenyans dope, but it's rare and none of the really good ones do anyway, only the kinda good ones.

Then Jeptoo gets busted and oops, well, that lady, well, a moral scoundrel and shame on her for not realizing she could have run 2:18 clean because after a certain level of talent, athletes entire physiology changes and EPO no longer carries a benefit.

Now literally dozens and dozens of Kenyan athletes have tested positive, including one of the best marathon runners in history, and Renato is still beating the YOU GUYS SO STUPID NOT GETTING IT drum.

He wants people to believe that wayward bio passports among East Africans reflect not doping, but novel physiology borne of generations of living at altitude, amazing training, and smiling a lot. He is literally using a somewhat more sophistry-choked version of, "That kid doesn't need to use 'roids, he's just naturally strong and lifts his ass off."

He wants you to believe that the people who designed the bio passport are just a bunch of rubes who never even paused to consider the very things he's accusing them of overlooking, as if he alone--one more Italian "doctor" with a deep abiding interest in protecting the reputations of Kenyans and anyone else he can leech off of, athletes who have all the reason in the world to take whatever they can to reach the top--knows both every effect on the body of PEDs and every way in which "innocent" blood samples may turn out to look highly suspicious.

He will keep spouting this garbage until he's no longer in the sport, period. If a 2:03 guy tests hot Renato will pretend he never knew him (which could be true) and again drop the No True Scotsm... er, No True Kenyan logical fallacy in into everyone's laps here.

Some extremely learned physiologists and coaches have pushed blood-boosting drugs on world-class athletes over the years. Who here really believes that Renato is some kind of brilliant renegade scientist who has discovered something no other physiologist believes?

Sure, some of what he says is true, and it's likely that a lot of Kenyans are running phenomenal times (or times that would have been phenomenal in 1990) clean. But anyone who is swayed to his side solely on the basis of the arguments he makes needs to get a head CT scan or something,

Metric Miler, the research reported in runnersworld can only support my thesis. How is it possible to consider a research, where the average in 3000m of Kenyan athletes was.... 9'30" !, valid for top athletes training 10 times more, both as volume and intensity, is for me a mistery, and clear doesn't give evidence in the "scientific knowledge" of the researchers.

Why do people continue to say that I said "EPO doesn't work with Kenyans" ?

I NEVER said something like this. I said EPO doesn't work with TOP KENYAN AND ETHIOPIAN ATHLETES, BORN, LIVING AND TRAINING IN ALTITUDE, HAVING PROPER TOUGH TRAINING.

How can be valid, and scientifically significative, a research where :

1) There is no information about the training of the subjects BEFORE their test

2) There is no information about their training DURING the somministration of EPO

3) There is no information about their training AFTER quitting the somministration of EPO

What does it mean "well trained athletes" for the researchers ?

What does it mean "Elite athletes" (not in this case) for the researchers in other studies ?

Do you understand that to study amateurs for tranferring the results of the research on real "elite runners" (for me top 50 in the world, because this is the only way to understand that the MAXIMAL ELITE, who are the WR holders, made their performances CLEAN), is like to study a draught-horse thinking the data are valid for a racehorse (or, speaking about the human race, to study the development of the muscle strength in a Marathon runner thinking the development in the world record holder of weight lifting can be the same).

Is it to difficult to understand that we have INDIVIDUAL responses, and these in high percentage depend on the training everybody can do ? So, basic and genetic qualities, enviroment and type of training are at the base of every physiological change. Doping can be another factor, that is inversely proportional to the above factors.

NEVER we find the word TRAINING in any research about doping, like training and doping were not connected. This is not true : many think that with more doping we can have more training, I (who are a coach, so training is my profession) instead say that with more training we can have less doping, till cancelling any effect when we can have the best possible training putting together talent of the athletes, motivation for continuity and hard workouts, respect for recovery, and specific enviroment (high altitude, as normal situation of living).

You can have doubts about this, because NEVER you had the opportunity to work with the absolute best in the world. I, who do this from many years, instead know till where they can arrive completely clean, and this is one of the reason that pushed me to study the effects of training with the best athletes, arriving at the conclusion that, for them, BLOOD DOPING DOESN'T PRODUCE ANY REAL ADVANTAGE.

You can believe or not my assertion, but must understand I have in my hands data that all the LR posters don't have : the real training of many WR holders, their results, and the knowledge they are totally clean.