En-Route Records

You only get the record that has the timing system set up.

So if you run a superhuman 1 minute 1500, you would not get the 800m world record officially, despite your 1500 time being faster than the 800m world record, unless you it timed in a way that followed all the requirements to be an official time.

For those en route records, they had set them up ahead of time in anticipation of the possibility of a record. (1500 en route to mile, 30k en route to marathon, etc).

There was a great thread that proved mathematically that you cannot be certain that a longer race run at a faster average pace also includes splits at that pace.

Take Komen's 3k in 7:20 (3:54 1600 pace)

He could run 1599 meters in 3:53, walk the next 2 meters in 2 seconds, then run 1399 meters in 3:25.

He never ran a continuous 1600 in 3:54, yet he averaged faster than that pace for the entire distance.

the only exception is when the shorter distance factors evenly into the larger distance.

So with Komen's 2-mile record, you can say with 100% certainty that he ran at least one continuous mile in exactly 3:59.3 somewhere along the way.

So if someone runs a half marathon at a faster average pace than the 15k WR, they do not get the 15k WR. You cannot prove that they ran any 15k en route at that pace. BUT, if someone ran 1600 meters at a faster pace than the 800m WR, it is a fact that they ran some 800 segment faster than the WR.

Fascinating analysis.

However, these are all moot points in light of the new laser measuring systems premiered at the 2016 World Indoor Championships.

Here's the thread I mentioned. It talks about the intermediate value theorem:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=6861728

This is good stuff but moot with regards to my question. I refer not to a 1/2 marathon at an average pace faster than the pace required for 15k record, but rather a 1/2 with a total time faster than 15k record. While your analysis is correct in the case of the women's WR at those distances (she is given the shorter record because there actually was a timing trap at 15k) in my scenario it is certain - 100% absolutely certain - that the record for the shorter distance was broken since the longer distance was completed in less time than the shorter record. This is why I used a mile time which, not in average pace but in total time, is faster than the 800 record. We know I went through the 800 faster than the record since I ran a couple more laps prior to Rudisha finishing 2.

What prompted this question was a visit to a HS track when no one was around. There was a board with school records to the effect of:

1 Mile - Max Johnson. - 4:31.56. May 16, 1975

1600m - Dickie Smalls. - 4:39.87. May 12, 1998

2 Mile - Pete Hughes. - 9:09:55. May 11, 1980

3200m - Nick Micros. - 9:14:96. May 8, 1996

See? I'm not saying that the equivalent performance with the longer distance was better (according to McMillan, JK, Daniels, or whoever) although that certainly was the case. I noticed that the more recent, shorter distances were not school records since somebody long ago ran farther than you did in less time. We are positive - no question - that the mile guy came through 1600 faster than the 1600 guy and that the 2 miler passed 3200 before the 3200 joker did. We know this because lass time had still elapsed when they were 32 and 64 feet farther. If I run a sub 1:40 mile, we do not need to extrapolate average pace since even if the last 809m were in 1 second, I still went through the first 800 faster than the current record.

Why not just give the Robo-Athlete the 800m record at 1:38, the 1k record at 1:38, etc.?

theoretically speaking........ wrote:

Do you have the shorter records too?

Yes, you would.

I

jjjjjj wrote:

Why not just give the Robo-Athlete the 800m record at 1:38, the 1k record at 1:38, etc.?

Exactly. It seems you would not be able to with a clear conscious say a 1:40 800 is the record. However, as discussed above, no extrapolated time is acceptable either. Ergo, 1:38 is the record for a variety of distances.

I believe jjjjjjj hits the nail on the head. Does this fly with all of you? It means various school records at non-standard distances bite the dust as a mile time will supercede a slower 1600 (ditto 2M & 3200). Is this a satisfactory solution when my original proposition was a little riduculous but the record board at the school was a real-life case??

On the school board they list a discontinued distance and the currently run distance with the shortest time recorded for the respective dustances. It becomes a Leader board with the leading results at various distances.

I agree with the logic that the mile leader has a time shorter than the 1600 leader. Since no one now has a chance to run for the leading mile it gets"retired" and the leading time for the 1600 is the new target.

It is when a school redoes their board and erases the mention that the mile leader ran a shorter time than the current 1600 leader, or the 4x110, 4x220, 4x440, 4x880, 4x mile and the 1320,440,880,mile relays were better performances than those at the current metric distances that gets me upset. 220 straightaway records never show up anywhere anymore.

In my mind discontinued records might be removed if there is no similar distance replacing it.

look at this list of NYS section records I bit confusing ????

1600 Meters/1-Mile

Section 1 Luke Gavigan Tappan Zee 4:08.96y 2014

Section 2 Aidan Tooker Saratoga 4:09.38y 2015

Section 3 Alex Hatz Fayetteville-Manlius 4:05.50y 2010 ** State Record

Section 4 Chad Noelle Greene 4:11.64y 2011

Section 5 John Tuttle Alfred-Almond 4:11.6m 1977

Dan Predmore Fairport 4:13.8y 1976

Section 6 Nick LaRosa Frontier 4:14.7m 1992 (converted)

Section 7 Jason Jabaut Seton Catholic 4:13.16y 2000

Section 8 Tom Camien Sewanhaka 4:13.8 1977

Section 9 John Trautmann Monroe-Woodbury 4:07.61y 1986

Section 10 Jim Tyler Norwood-Norfolk 4:14.0m 1981

Section 11 James Burke Port Jefferson 4:08.48y 2015

CHSAA Conor Lundy Fordham Prep 4:08.25y 2016

PSAL Bill Dabney Boys 4:13.6y 1973

3200 Meters/2-Mile

Section 1 Brian Cook Pearl River 9:07.04y 2014

Section 2 Aidan Tooker Saratoga 8:56.16y 2015

Section 3 Tommy Gruenewald Fayetteville-Manlius 9:06.27m 2006

Section 4 Chad Noelle Greene 9:08.29m 2011

Section 5 Mickey Burke Rush-Henrietta 9:05.15y 2014

Section 6 Charlie Kern Sweet Home 9:15.89m 1987

Section 7 Josh McDougal Home-School 8:50.40y 2004 ** State Record

Section 8 T.J. McArdle Garden City 9:06.05y 1987

Section 9 John Trautmann Monroe-Woodbury 8:59.44m 1986

Section 10 Jon Pierce Canton 9:18.66m 2002

Section 11 Tim Mcgowan Northport 9:00.20y 2014

CHSAA Conor Lundy Fordham Prep 8:58.98y 2016

PSAL Konrad Surkont Stuyvesant 9:14.20y 2012

They got it right by doing this:

http://www.tullyrunners.com/RecNysBoys.htm