I guess I need some sort of example on this because all this thread has taught me is that with hard work any average human can do it. I recognize there are extreme senarios that lead to a person not being physically able to due to an impairment but for the average human with training and drive to break the barrier, there should be no reason one cannot break it. A person can allways gain more speed and more endurance with training. I can understand not being able to break 4 in the mile but 5 should be absolutly doable.
I can’t understand why the 4 min barrier cannot be broken by most, if not all average people with hard training. After all you can get more speed and endurance with hard work.
Genetic limits. You're not really going to get faster in top speed than when you were a teenager running flat out.
Very few runners know what their top speed is anyway and that includes sprinters. But no true sprinter is ever going to have the endurance to run a sub 4 mile. Nor a very slow runner have the speed to do the same.
Yea I rocgonize that it is only a portion of the equation and doesn't 1:1 represent the abilities of each human but I feel this is a good generalization of the idea. Not every human has 5 toes but in a science book a good general take is that mainly humans are born with 5 toes. Ergo, generally a person with x VO2 max should be able to run x time in x race.
No. It doesn't work like that. The best distance runners are around 70 VO2max, but they have good basic speed also, which helps their VO2 economy. That's why they can run sub 4. They are only slightly behind the best milers in 1500/mile races.
So I’ve posted a handful of times on this thread along the way about my own struggle and obsession with breaking 5. I suppose now that the OP’s journey is over, I can continue to post occasionally to keep the spirit of the tribulations alive.
Because there are like 500 posts, quick summary:
Curently in my late 30s. Started running in early - mid 30s getting my mile time from 5:50 -> 5:10 in about 18 months (although the latter was a net downhill of like 20-30 ft). I was focused on longer distances then, but got injured for several years.
Finally got some consistency in running again three years ago. The most recent efforts on the track:
-5:09 (April 2021), 5:08 (Oct ‘21), and then 5:06 and 5:04 this past month. Another race in 9 days. Hoping to split the difference b/w where I am and my goal.
Consistently inching there, but it’s so slow going and I’m not that far from being 40, so it’s either happening soon or not at all. I’m going at it hard this year. We’ll see if my opportunity has passed me by or not soon enough.
And yes, it’s damn hard for a regular dude. I’ve always been involved in sport to some degree even if I wasn’t a runner growing up. There’s a huge difference between going for this in HS and being an adult and giving it a go.
Good luck this weekend, let us know how it goes.
Somewhat belated pro tip: Abstain from coffee a week before your race. Drink a large cup of joe two hours before the race and head to the restroom 15 minutes before your race starts.
If there are a large number of guys in the 4:55-5:00 range, stick with them for the first 1209m and don't worry too much about your splits. If almost everyone is either under 4:45 or over 5:15, shoot for quarter-mile splits of 73, 75, 76, and give it all you've got that last quarter.
Thanks, I'll definitely update. There should be some people targeting 5:00 in the heat I'm in, but those details may be a day or so away. I'll keep all that in mind. Historically. I have one bad lap, usually #2 or 3, though in my 5:04, it was pretty evenly split. I came through the third lap in 3:46-3:47, but my legs had nothing left in the final lap, so if I can do something similar in the first three and have a little better final lap, I'll be happy.
Btw, what's the logic with the coffee tip...peak focus after abstaining? Maybe I can try that one out in a future race.
Somewhat belated pro tip: Abstain from coffee a week before your race. Drink a large cup of joe two hours before the race and head to the restroom 15 minutes before your race starts.
If there are a large number of guys in the 4:55-5:00 range, stick with them for the first 1209m and don't worry too much about your splits. If almost everyone is either under 4:45 or over 5:15, shoot for quarter-mile splits of 73, 75, 76, and give it all you've got that last quarter.
Thanks, I'll definitely update. There should be some people targeting 5:00 in the heat I'm in, but those details may be a day or so away. I'll keep all that in mind. Historically. I have one bad lap, usually #2 or 3, though in my 5:04, it was pretty evenly split. I came through the third lap in 3:46-3:47, but my legs had nothing left in the final lap, so if I can do something similar in the first three and have a little better final lap, I'll be happy.
Btw, what's the logic with the coffee tip...peak focus after abstaining? Maybe I can try that one out in a future race.
Abstaining from coffee* a week out will re-sensitize you to caffeine. Not only will the race-day caffeine get you hyped up, but it'll also reduce fatigue quite noticeably.
*For best results, also avoid other caffeine products like tea and energy drinks.
As an update, I ran the race on Friday and aiming for 5:02 ended up being pretty dead on. Went 76/77/76/73, with the first lap being the 409 meters. I'm tantalizingly close, but still have two seconds to go. Gotta learn to run in crowds, too. It was super tight through three laps. Pace slowed a little on the second lap, and I wasn't expecting that to happen until #3. That's on me obviously, and even if I had run that one better, there's no guarantee I would have still been able to close in 73.
Thanks, I'll definitely update. There should be some people targeting 5:00 in the heat I'm in, but those details may be a day or so away. I'll keep all that in mind. Historically. I have one bad lap, usually #2 or 3, though in my 5:04, it was pretty evenly split. I came through the third lap in 3:46-3:47, but my legs had nothing left in the final lap, so if I can do something similar in the first three and have a little better final lap, I'll be happy.
Btw, what's the logic with the coffee tip...peak focus after abstaining? Maybe I can try that one out in a future race.
Abstaining from coffee* a week out will re-sensitize you to caffeine. Not only will the race-day caffeine get you hyped up, but it'll also reduce fatigue quite noticeably.
*For best results, also avoid other caffeine products like tea and energy drinks.
What is your source on re-sensitizing? I have never seen research on this- is it a common sense theory or do you have a reference? It sounds reasonable, but of course that doesn’t necessarily mean that it is correct. Thanks!
I looked into this at one point and found the same. Some time, maybe 2 weeks, off caffeine resets your tolerance and when you restart it has the expected effect. If you take it every day the effect mainly wears off through tolerance. Don't have sources - just Google it.
So I’ve posted a handful of times on this thread along the way about my own struggle and obsession with breaking 5. I suppose now that the OP’s journey is over, I can continue to post occasionally to keep the spirit of the tribulations alive.
Because there are like 500 posts, quick summary:
Curently in my late 30s. Started running in early - mid 30s getting my mile time from 5:50 -> 5:10 in about 18 months (although the latter was a net downhill of like 20-30 ft). I was focused on longer distances then, but got injured for several years.
Finally got some consistency in running again three years ago. The most recent efforts on the track:
-5:09 (April 2021), 5:08 (Oct ‘21), and then 5:06 and 5:04 this past month. Another race in 9 days. Hoping to split the difference b/w where I am and my goal.
Consistently inching there, but it’s so slow going and I’m not that far from being 40, so it’s either happening soon or not at all. I’m going at it hard this year. We’ll see if my opportunity has passed me by or not soon enough.
And yes, it’s damn hard for a regular dude. I’ve always been involved in sport to some degree even if I wasn’t a runner growing up. There’s a huge difference between going for this in HS and being an adult and giving it a go.
It finally happened!! 4:59, baby! I’m stunned that after years of grinding toward this I finally got there.
The plan was to start conservatively and pick up steam. I came through 209m in 39 and then followed up with 38/39/37/37/37/36/36. I ended up running a lot in lane 2 on the curves, which wasn’t ideal, but it always felt like people were slowing on the turns and that’s where my opportunities were.
Like OP, I had inched toward the goal for years as an adult, but never quite got there…setback, injuries, and just not having enough fitness plagued me for years. Then, also like the OP, it all came together during an indoor season. I’m turning 40 this year, so I really felt the pressure to make it happen. If I couldn’t do it in my 30s, no reason to think my 40s would be any different.
While only being able to eek out a sub-5 mile is not noteworthy around here, for the average adult without much of a background growing up in running, this was by far the most physically challenging pursuit I’ve worked toward. It takes a lot of desire, grit, and commitment from us plebeian folks.
Thanks to Elusive Dreams for starting this incredible thread! I enjoyed watching, being inspired by his journey, and then eventually breaking through myself. Hopefully there is more to come, but I can rest easy having finally achieved this dream. What a joy, what a relief, what an adventure!
Congratulations! Really well done. If I can say the same when I am 40 in a few years I will be quite happy.
Been thinking about this a lot, I'll be attempting it again myself in less than a week. But beginning to realize my aerobic engine sucks (despite most of my work being dedicated to improving just that). Most of my running is slow (7'45" avg, 40mpw) but I can sprint over 20mph and still only scratching at 5'30". You'd think a meager 12mph for a mile would be no problem...
My opinion is shifting to realizing 5' is really not beyond the reach of many if you put in the time building up the aerobic engine over the course of years. You don't have to have much outright speed. It's mostly economy. If the mile is 70% aerobic / 30% anaerobic (roughly), there is no neglecting the aerobic engine. It is why mile /1500m speed still correlates decently with marathon capability (90%/10%).
Many distance runners are achieving this feat on very MAF-like protocols. I might try backing off my paces a bit if I find myself still a good bit off the goal. Sort of easing into it on the aerobic side instead of hammering against the anaerobic system until I am within striking distance.
So I’ve posted a handful of times on this thread along the way about my own struggle and obsession with breaking 5. I suppose now that the OP’s journey is over, I can continue to post occasionally to keep the spirit of the tribulations alive.
Because there are like 500 posts, quick summary:
Curently in my late 30s. Started running in early - mid 30s getting my mile time from 5:50 -> 5:10 in about 18 months (although the latter was a net downhill of like 20-30 ft). I was focused on longer distances then, but got injured for several years.
Finally got some consistency in running again three years ago. The most recent efforts on the track:
-5:09 (April 2021), 5:08 (Oct ‘21), and then 5:06 and 5:04 this past month. Another race in 9 days. Hoping to split the difference b/w where I am and my goal.
Consistently inching there, but it’s so slow going and I’m not that far from being 40, so it’s either happening soon or not at all. I’m going at it hard this year. We’ll see if my opportunity has passed me by or not soon enough.
And yes, it’s damn hard for a regular dude. I’ve always been involved in sport to some degree even if I wasn’t a runner growing up. There’s a huge difference between going for this in HS and being an adult and giving it a go.
It finally happened!! 4:59, baby! I’m stunned that after years of grinding toward this I finally got there.
The plan was to start conservatively and pick up steam. I came through 209m in 39 and then followed up with 38/39/37/37/37/36/36. I ended up running a lot in lane 2 on the curves, which wasn’t ideal, but it always felt like people were slowing on the turns and that’s where my opportunities were.
Like OP, I had inched toward the goal for years as an adult, but never quite got there…setback, injuries, and just not having enough fitness plagued me for years. Then, also like the OP, it all came together during an indoor season. I’m turning 40 this year, so I really felt the pressure to make it happen. If I couldn’t do it in my 30s, no reason to think my 40s would be any different.
While only being able to eek out a sub-5 mile is not noteworthy around here, for the average adult without much of a background growing up in running, this was by far the most physically challenging pursuit I’ve worked toward. It takes a lot of desire, grit, and commitment from us plebeian folks.
Thanks to Elusive Dreams for starting this incredible thread! I enjoyed watching, being inspired by his journey, and then eventually breaking through myself. Hopefully there is more to come, but I can rest easy having finally achieved this dream. What a joy, what a relief, what an adventure!
Congrats, man! That's excellent pacing. The median guy in his late 30s wouldn't be able to run a sub 5 minute mile regardless of how much training he does, so you definitely accomplished something noteworthy.
Just out of curiosity, did you go under 5 on a banked indoor track or on a flat one? Also, what was your training like for the past few weeks (weekly mileage, workout frequency, taper, etc.)? Were there any key workouts you felt that made a big difference?
Don’t give up. I ran a 2:37 marathon long before I ever broke 5 minutes for the mile. Before I ran out of time, I started focusing on that goal by training for the 880. Because in order to run sub 5, you need to be comfortable passing through halfway at 2:27 or so. So I just started doing 330 repeats, sometimes 20 of them with a 110 jog in order to feel comfortable. At long last, I ran 2:16 for the half on my own and I thought I was ready. I entered a small meet and ran 4:59. I was so elated. Then a couple of weeks later, Vin Fleming was doing repeat miles at Tufts and I asked if I could follow him for one. I hand timed myself at 4:54 and that was my best. So you can do it. I have no talent, never came close to breaking 60 for the 440.
It finally happened!! 4:59, baby! I’m stunned that after years of grinding toward this I finally got there.
The plan was to start conservatively and pick up steam. I came through 209m in 39 and then followed up with 38/39/37/37/37/36/36. I ended up running a lot in lane 2 on the curves, which wasn’t ideal, but it always felt like people were slowing on the turns and that’s where my opportunities were.
Like OP, I had inched toward the goal for years as an adult, but never quite got there…setback, injuries, and just not having enough fitness plagued me for years. Then, also like the OP, it all came together during an indoor season. I’m turning 40 this year, so I really felt the pressure to make it happen. If I couldn’t do it in my 30s, no reason to think my 40s would be any different.
While only being able to eek out a sub-5 mile is not noteworthy around here, for the average adult without much of a background growing up in running, this was by far the most physically challenging pursuit I’ve worked toward. It takes a lot of desire, grit, and commitment from us plebeian folks.
Thanks to Elusive Dreams for starting this incredible thread! I enjoyed watching, being inspired by his journey, and then eventually breaking through myself. Hopefully there is more to come, but I can rest easy having finally achieved this dream. What a joy, what a relief, what an adventure!
Nice! Now it's time to use that speed to go after those 3K and 5K PRs :)
It finally happened!! 4:59, baby! I’m stunned that after years of grinding toward this I finally got there.
The plan was to start conservatively and pick up steam. I came through 209m in 39 and then followed up with 38/39/37/37/37/36/36. I ended up running a lot in lane 2 on the curves, which wasn’t ideal, but it always felt like people were slowing on the turns and that’s where my opportunities were.
Like OP, I had inched toward the goal for years as an adult, but never quite got there…setback, injuries, and just not having enough fitness plagued me for years. Then, also like the OP, it all came together during an indoor season. I’m turning 40 this year, so I really felt the pressure to make it happen. If I couldn’t do it in my 30s, no reason to think my 40s would be any different.
While only being able to eek out a sub-5 mile is not noteworthy around here, for the average adult without much of a background growing up in running, this was by far the most physically challenging pursuit I’ve worked toward. It takes a lot of desire, grit, and commitment from us plebeian folks.
Thanks to Elusive Dreams for starting this incredible thread! I enjoyed watching, being inspired by his journey, and then eventually breaking through myself. Hopefully there is more to come, but I can rest easy having finally achieved this dream. What a joy, what a relief, what an adventure!
Huge congrats! That is one tough barrier to break for us Average Joes.
It's inspiring to read your story of finally breaking 5 at age 39. I'm a few years younger, so maybe my PR days aren't over yet. We'll see!
Most of my running is slow (7'45" avg, 40mpw) but I can sprint over 20mph and still only scratching at 5'30". You'd think a meager 12mph for a mile would be no problem...
That's strange. What are your 400, 800, and 3k/2 mile times now?
I haven't been on a track in awhile. Last time I tried I got booted around the peak covid nonsense and haven't tried since. I think it's fair to say my 400m times wouldn't be great. I'd wager 65s at best. 800m maybe could squeak out one at 2:35'.
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.
I haven't been on a track in awhile. Last time I tried I got booted around the peak covid nonsense and haven't tried since. I think it's fair to say my 400m times wouldn't be great. I'd wager 65s at best. 800m maybe could squeak out one at 2:35'.
Maybe I'm overlooking something, but this doesn't seem to be adding up.
You said earlier that you could sprint over 20 mph, which is 11.2 second pace for a flying 100m. So that's maybe a 12.3ish 100m from blocks. But you can only manage a 65" 400? I know middle-school sprinters and high school girls with no endurance training who can't run a 12.3 100 but can go under 60 in the 400. With 12.3 speed, your 400 time should be 56 even without any distance work.
Also, I hate to disappoint you, but if your 800 time really is in the 2:35 range and you've been running 40 mpw consistently, you might not ever get to a sub 5 mile. You pretty much need to drop your 800 time by 6 seconds and maintain that pace for another 809m, which is going to be incredibly difficult to do in your mid 30s. I hope you prove me wrong, though.
Yes, you have that right. It is odd indeed. I used to run 53.x for the 400m in high school off pretty poor training at the time. Not sure why I can't sustain my similar speed for even 400m anymore.
But I don't disagree with your assessment, I'm not in 5 minute shape right now. The good news is I'm sitting on about 4 months of solid training, so I feel like I'm still improving readily.
This post was edited 19 minutes after it was posted.
It's an open outdoor road mile called "spirit run" in Newport beach. Has all legit timing and scoring with splits but it is slightly downhill (-60ft?) and feels easier than lapping a track. They have a 5k event as well that I'll be doing to get in some extra miles afterwards.
This post was edited 2 minutes after it was posted.