Best All-Time HS All-Star XC Team by State

WyoKid wrote:

A 5th for Wyoming

Caleb Her Many Horses, Wyoming Indian HS

3x State Champ (2nd as a FR)

Thank you. Fixed

oldold runner wrote:

I'm not to familiar with Arizona HS runners, but one guys that should be on Arizona's all time list is 2004 Footlocker champ:'

Ken Cormier the Marine.

Thank you. Two other names I came across were: Carlos Villareal, Bernie Montoya, but I know nothing about AZ HS XC.

pre841 wrote:

oldold runner wrote:

I'm not to familiar with Arizona HS runners, but one guys that should be on Arizona's all time list is 2004 Footlocker champ:'

Ken Cormier the Marine.

Thank you. Two other names I came across were: Carlos Villareal, Bernie Montoya, but I know nothing about AZ HS XC.

Jeff Cannada from Greenway HS in Phoenix is an absolute no brainer for AZ

br0ski wrote:

After research

Massachusetts

1. Abdirizak Mohammed - 2x footlocker winner

2. Alberto Salazar (8:53.8 for 2mi; 14:04.8 for 5k; 12:22.5 for VCP @ 2.5 mi)

3. Art Dulong- 11:04 for 2.5 miles Franklin Park, 4:04 mile

4. Andy Powell- 14:52 5k Franklin Park ~8:49 2 mile indoors

5. Franklyn Sanchez- Just lost to Powell 8:48 2 mile indoors

6. Jonathan Riley- 3:43 1500m

7. Daniel Moynihan

Others: Chris Barnicle 8:52 2-mile, Jonathan Green 15:20 Northfield mountain, Mark Coogan 9:24 2-mile.

I think you missed this. I just moved around the order and added some stats for Massachusetts. If you want to keep Mike Mahon on at #7 as an inside joke for MA people that's fine #7 is very debatable

Knife wrote:

pre841 wrote:

Thank you. Two other names I came across were: Carlos Villareal, Bernie Montoya, but I know nothing about AZ HS XC.

Jeff Cannada from Greenway HS in Phoenix is an absolute no brainer for AZ

Jeff Cannada, maybe Bo Reed, also don't forget Billy Orman

Not having Lukas V in top 10 in absurd in my opinion. Consistently destroyed above average competition in XC and has the best track credentials of anyone on the list.

1 - 4 in no particular order IMHO:

Lindgren, L.V., Ritz, Virgin.

It starts getting muddy after that I think.

Knife wrote:

pre841 wrote:

Thank you. Two other names I came across were: Carlos Villareal, Bernie Montoya, but I know nothing about AZ HS XC.

Jeff Cannada from Greenway HS in Phoenix is an absolute no brainer for AZ

Thanks. One more runner needed for a scoring team.

br0ski wrote:

br0ski wrote:

After research

Massachusetts

1. Abdirizak Mohammed - 2x footlocker winner

2. Alberto Salazar (8:53.8 for 2mi; 14:04.8 for 5k; 12:22.5 for VCP @ 2.5 mi)

3. Art Dulong- 11:04 for 2.5 miles Franklin Park, 4:04 mile

4. Andy Powell- 14:52 5k Franklin Park ~8:49 2 mile indoors

5. Franklyn Sanchez- Just lost to Powell 8:48 2 mile indoors

6. Jonathan Riley- 3:43 1500m

7. Daniel Moynihan

Others: Chris Barnicle 8:52 2-mile, Jonathan Green 15:20 Northfield mountain, Mark Coogan 9:24 2-mile.

I think you missed this. I just moved around the order and added some stats for Massachusetts. If you want to keep Mike Mahon on at #7 as an inside joke for MA people that's fine #7 is very debatable

Thank you. MA created more debate than almost any state. Again, I know very little about MA other than Salazar's success as a schoolboy. Please tell me of the inside joke about Mahon. I love stuff like this and find the regional nature of this thread fascinating.

pre841 wrote:

Knife wrote:

Jeff Cannada from Greenway HS in Phoenix is an absolute no brainer for AZ

Thanks. One more runner needed for a scoring team.

Yay, another scoring team.

pre841 wrote:

So after thinking about this for the past 19 pages, I would propose that we try reach some consensus on the top 10, and then #11-20, and then # 21-30. I realize that this might be an exercise in futility, but I have enjoyed learning so much about other states' high school harriers.

Judging this might be difficult, but I would propose considering:

1. Their high school XC career (key invitationals and times; state finishes; Kinney/Footlocker and NXN finishes as well as AAU Nationals and Jr. World finishes) and PRs.

2. Their head-to-head performances

3. Their high school track times

4. Their lifetime running pedigree

Here is my top 10

1. Gerry Lindgren (WA)

2. Steve Prefontaine (OR)

3. Craig Virgin (IL)

4. Drew Hunter (VA)

5. Jeff Nelson (CA)

6. Galen Rupp (OR)

7. Eric Hulst (CA)

8. Dathan Ritzenhein (MI)

9. Edward Cheserek (NJ)

10. Adam Goucher (CO)

Agreements/Disagreements/Replacements?

Ritzenhein at #8 for high school cross country ranking is completely void of any logic. You seem to ignore your own criteria. The topic is "...HS All-Star XC Team...", so that should be heavily weighted. You'll see below why I have him at #1 or #2. He was better than Virgin. He was better than Pre. I'd say he was better than Lindgren too, but Lindgren's legendary performances in his respective era are hard to ignore. So perhaps they share the #1 spot. Using YOUR criteria here...

1) High school XC career- Finished 8th as a sophomore, 1st as a junior, and 1st as a senior at FLCC. The names he blasted as a junior and senior were incredibly strong. He didn't lose a cross country OR track race to high school competition from the 2 Mile Nationals as a sophomore (when he won, breaking 9:00 for the first time). Ran 14:10 at the MI state meet course as a senior. The second best time on the course is 14:51, and there have been 2 FLCC Champions (3 actual titles) that have run the course since Ritz. Established a new FLMW record at Kenosha as a junior (14:55), and then destroyed that record as a senior (14:35). I believe the second fastest time on the course is 14:45 (Lukas). Won FLCC as a junior in 14:29 over loaded field. Then dominated as a senior over Webb and Hall. 3rd at World Cross Juniors in the era of Kenya/Ethiopia. The winner of the race was a guy named Bekele (this is just used as reference to compare the level of competition between that era's runners vs, say, Virgin or other pre-1980s high finishes by kids from the US).

2) Their head-to-head performances- Didn't lose for over 2 years at any distance to high school competition.

3) Their high school track times- Didn't chase mile and 2 mile times his senior year, as he ran World Cross and then went after the 5K track record in the spring. As a junior however, he went 4:05.9 for 1600m and 8:41.1 for 3200m. As a senior, ran 13:44.7 at USA senior nats after qualifying with 13:51 at Penn Relays (where he led a good portion of the race). Considering 13:44 is 4:24/8:48 pace, one could reasonably assume he could have hit the 8:35-:37 range for 2 miles. It would have been nice to see him take a real shot at it.

4) Lifetime running pedigree- Lifetime bests:

3000 meters: 7:39.03

2-mile: 8:11.74 (equivalent to 7:36 3K)

5000 meters: 12:56.27 (American Record)

10,000 meters: 27:22.28

Half-Marathon: 60:00

Marathon: 2:07:47

Other notes: NCAA XC champion, Three-time USA XC Champion, American Record holder for 5K.

No one but perhaps Lindgren can match this breadth of success, especially if the high school XC career carries the most weight.

Ritz vs. Virgin in a high school cross-country race is a wash. Each would beat the other 50 out of 100 times. Virgin took 13th at AAU Senior men's cross-country in an Olympic year. As great as Ritz was, I don't think he could have matched that.

pre841 do you really think Pre was a sub-9 two-miler his senior year of high school cross-country. I don't see too much evidence of that.

Please don't misunderstand my position. There are many qualified runners for the MA list, but Mahon definitely deserves a spot. As someone else said, anyone on the list would agree Mahon should be there.

Thanks for your efforts.

Pre and Nelson are overrated on your list. Hulst should be in front of Virgin. Rich Kimball was better than Goucher.

pre841 wrote:

Knife wrote:

Jeff Cannada from Greenway HS in Phoenix is an absolute no brainer for AZ

Thanks. One more runner needed for a scoring team.

Brian Shrader (11th and 5th at Footlocker, 3 Arizona state XC titles)

No Marc Davis for California?

I know it might make these rankings harder to compile, but should lifetime running pedigree be a factor? I thought we were to avoid post-high school times and success in compiling the original lists? Just a thought.

For Nevada:

Girls:

1. Mel Lawrence

2. Abby Miller

3. Collier Lawrence

4. Inga Thompson

5. Shana Sparks

6. Nikki Peterson

7. Sydney Badger

Boys:

1. Andre Woods

2. Wade Meddles

3. Bryan Tibaduiza

4. Brad Meyer

5. Pat Hubbard

6. Bryan Carroll

7. Nick Hartle

This is a solid list from NV, however, it is hard to research results and performances pre about 1975 for NV. So, runners like Tom Wysocki (Western High School) and Frank Plasso Jr. (Bishop Gorman High School) are left off of this list. Their performances post high school are fantastic, but, the list above just includes high school performances only.

This list was compiled after discussions with two long time high school coaches in NV.

I agree. High School times only. Post HS results would eliminate many runners as they did not perform as well as in HS.

Also Bobby Thomas won JR World Cross as a freshman at Glendale JC. Not while he was in HS.

Lifetime running pedigree would seem stacked against a guy like Hulst.

Thanks for clearing up the details about Bobby Thomas.

I'm having a hard time seeing Drew Hunter beating 45 years of Californians. A lot of those guys in the 70's had been racing each other for years. Not sure how Hunter would do in a hotly-contested 5K on grass but doubtful he would beat every runner California has ever produced.