about talent, mileage, age ... or: why am I so slow?

Juan, like I said on the last page I am following a plan now with relaxed extensive intervals. So my 400's are now done at ~1:32.

I never ran a mile flat out, but my recent 10k gives a equivalent single mile of ~5:37, so that's a 400 in 1:24. That's the upper limit I do my 200/200 intervals at, ~39-42 seconds.

For now it is working for me, but I know it's not the 'classic' way of heavy intervals and recovery days.

ricardo wrote:

Juan, like I said on the last page I am following a plan now with relaxed extensive intervals. So my 400's are now done at ~1:32.

I never ran a mile flat out, but my recent 10k gives a equivalent single mile of ~5:37, so that's a 400 in 1:24. That's the upper limit I do my 200/200 intervals at, ~39-42 seconds.

For now it is working for me, but I know it's not the 'classic' way of heavy intervals and recovery days.

You found a formula that works for you. Keeping doing it until it stops working. You can get slightly faster as you get stronger on your work outs, but you're right to stick to this plan for now, definitely.

Hey guys,

Tonight I ran my last planned race before the summer, another 10k. If anybody is interested at all, I thought I would give you guys an update because I'm just very happy with the result.

Two weeks ago, after the 40:02, the plan was to scrape a couple of seconds off, to go under 40.

Well, that worked out great, I did it in 39:15.

Next race end of august. so let's see what the effect of another 2,5 months of really solid training, without races and the recovery of those races, will be.

No, 30s 200m is fat kid at PE level.

DoritosLocosTacos wrote:

No, 30s 200m is fat kid at PE level.

Its true, I have a 'fat' friend, who isnt even a runner/sprinter/sportsman, that can outsprint me anytime.

Good for him.

The weather is good here, so I might give the 200 another try later this week. Maybe I can get to chubby kid PE level on your scale and get your respect. That would really make my day, champ ;)

DoritosLocosTacos wrote:

No, 30s 200m is fat kid at PE level.

I've run faster than that off of no training and have run a 24" 200 with training. But I have yet to come close to a 20 min 5K. Even a 20 min 3 mile is hard.

You have more fast twitch than Mo Farah. But every runner needs speed/speed endurance work, that is stuff like 150 meter efforts at 200 meter race pace.

Distance runners who don't do this are just wasting their natural ability and underachieving. Typically these are the type of runners who constantly remind us how they have "no talent".

ricardo wrote:

Juan, like I said on the last page I am following a plan now with relaxed extensive intervals. So my 400's are now done at ~1:32.

I never ran a mile flat out, but my recent 10k gives a equivalent single mile of ~5:37, so that's a 400 in 1:24. That's the upper limit I do my 200/200 intervals at, ~39-42 seconds.

For now it is working for me, but I know it's not the 'classic' way of heavy intervals and recovery days.

I'm rooting for you ricardo as I'm in the same boat. I broke 20 after only a year of running, 40 for 10k after 2 years, 39 after 4 years and recently a half-marathon at 20' 5k pace after 7 years.

Slow progression compared to yours! May I ask what kind of speed workouts you have been doing and more details on your plan? I was successful moving my "speed" to longer distances, but never got faster at the shorter stuff (since I don't train for it). Many thanks and CONGRATS!

Hi, 730, thanks man.

Congratulations on your half marathon!

While my training is a definitely more structured than it was in January when I started this thread, the word "plan" may have given you the impression that I follow a set in stone schedule. That is not really the case, yet.

Since one of the Track clubs nearby, that I plan on joining, uses the trainings method founded by Herman Verheul, I decided to begin using the method of one of Verheul's best runners, Klaas Lok, as the basis for my own training. So that, if I decide to join that Track club, I am already familiar with the style of training and don't have to go 180 degrees.

Here you can read an article about the Method of Verheul:

So, Im still transitioning. In practise this means that I make sure to do at least 2 interval sessions a week, a long run and 2 or 3 normal runs with some tempo variations on feel, not really structured. But the plan is to eventually replace almost all normal/steady runs for interval sessions.

The interval sessiosn are very light compared to the classic methods, which makes them very easy to get started with by yourself, without a trainer.

15x200 at 1500/3000 pace with 200 active jog recovery

10x400 at 5/10k pace with 400 active jog recovery

6x1000 at 15/half marathon pace with 800/1000 active jog recovery

Of course before and after the session you warm up/ cool down for 6k total, or whatever you like.

The only really easy running that is done is the active recovery between intervals.

You asked about speed development... as you can see the speediest I go is 200's in maybe 37 if I go out [too] hard.

The other ways of speed development in Klaas Lok's method are of course the shorter races and 100 meters [after your 1000's session]. Comparable to doing strides.

But as I said, I am just starting out with this "plan" so don't take my training as a fair representation of Herman Verheul/Klaas Lok training. If you follow the real method, you should race almost every week and do a hard fartlek and gymnastics weekly. So what I do now is only scratching the surface.

What does your training look like?

Very nice, thanks!

My training prior to the 1:24 half was as follows:

- 35 to 50 mpw (most in the 40s)

- short but quick "long runs" of 8-10 miles at 7:00 pace

- some "slow tempo" e.g 3 mi @ 6:40 inserted into long runs

- some tempo intervals e.g. 3 times 10 min @ 6:15 or 6:20 w/ 2' recovery

- a bit of speed workouts e.g. 6 x 800 @ 6:00 pace w/ 400 jg

- some Daniels' R pace e.g. 200s in the 38-40" range

I don't often train faster than 7:00 pace to be honest, but I do enjoy longer tempo runs. I broke 38 min for 10k (well, by 1 seconds to be precise) by building strength running 6-9 miles at 6:40 as my "long run".

Schedule was M-W-F easy T-Thu speed/tempo, Sat trail and Sun long tempo.

Now that i met my half goal I want to build a true base and do the polar opposite: building to 50, 60 and perhaps even more miles per week but running mostly slow, and maybe some progression runs if I feel like it.

If your goal is 5/10k, intervals make more sense. Wish you well!

That's very nice, man, a 1:24 on ~40 miles and never going further than 10 miles on your long run.

I'm not an expert at all, haha ;) but you can probably go alot faster after building that "true base".

Yes, of course I want to do a half marathon, and even a full one, sometime in the future, but for now I'm going to focus mainly on 10k. Only if/when a sub 1:25 half should be possible based on my 10k time I might begin training with a half marathon in mind. So, first thing is to get that 10k near your PR!

Thanks, I wish you all the best with your training too. And definitely let me know when you've run some new PR's.

Hi Ricardo,

Just wondered how you're getting on now? You made some good progress with the Verheul stuff, did you manage to keep it up?

I like this progression. Is there any set time you should spend at each level of workouts or do you just move on to the harder ones once you can complete the easier workouts. . I’m currently a 20.50 5k runner who last broke 20 about 2 years ago and have had some time off.

I like this progression of workouts. Do you move to the harder ones once you can do the easier ones or spend a set amount of time at each level of difficulty?

Bump

How goes it? wrote:

Hi Ricardo,

Just wondered how you're getting on now? You made some good progress with the Verheul stuff, did you manage to keep it up?

Hi,

A very late reply, I dont know if you will read this, but I ran a 38:3x 10k in august 2016, which is still my best 'race'. I was well on my way to run a very good [for me] half marathon in october 2016. I felt really strong and think I could have run under 1:25 but I got injured in september.

The Verheul/ Klaas Lok stuff definitely worked for me but I have to say that besides the Verheul stuff I also did continuous [tempo] runs and during the summer long runs of 20-25 kms. My mileage topped out at around 95-100km/week during the summer. Too bad my shin couldnt handle it.

Im building up again after not training for quite some time.

Thanks for asking!

Hey Ricardo,

Enjoyed reading your thread, and just wanted to wish you well on your recovery. You made really great progress there, and now you know you can do it, so you've got that going for you.

Also, since a few people were knocking your speed back there, just wanted to say that you're faster over 200 than I ever was, and I ran mid-16s for 5k. So, definitely smart to work on the speed, sure, but no need to see that as a limiting factor. At least for a while yet...

Is low vo2max limiting factor when you hev sped?