about talent, mileage, age ... or: why am I so slow?

Advisor wrote:

Jack Daniels VDOT tables gives a 20 minute 5k runner an easy pace of 8:40 per mile, but what does he know...

Does jack daniels advise running easy 5 days a week without a workout on 35 mpw as ideal 5k training? No. So he is running too slow.

Keep your paces but add the workouts twice a week.

br0ski wrote:

Your speed is more than fine. You should start trying to do workouts if you haven't already. Tempo runs/ fartleks and then on the track. Something like 5x1000 or 6x800 or 8x600 at 5k pace. 90 sec rest.

br0ski, Lenny Leonard,

Okay, more structured workouts, I will keep that in mind. And temporuns, which alot of other posters also recommended. Thanks for your suggestions.

br0ski, you also asked if I just go out and run 35 miles a week. Yes, that's what I end up doing most of the time, despite my plans of structuring my running more.

If your 400 speed is around 70 then a 20:00 5K sounds about right for someone who is consistent with their training, but still lives a normal life.

He is not running too slow. The pace of easy runs is the least important variable for now. It should feel comfortable, and eventually that comfortable pace becomes faster. I would say if he is running significantly faster on 6 milers than 10 milers, then he is likely beyond easy pace on the 6 miler, which may have its place, maybe not.

Easy running regardless of pace, and sets of short hill sprints, or tempo/run to the barn on days you feel like going faster... that will get you 95+% of the way there. Those workouts like 1000s at 5K pace are just icing on the cake, and can be saved for later in my opinion.

Yep. But I will reiterate I don't think it is wise to go from no workouts to 5x1000m overnight. You need to build up to that workout that same way you would jump from a 5 mile long run to an 11 mile one just because that's what the fast guys do.

Here is another bit of advice. 5x 1000m with 90 sec rest takes about 25 minutes to complete without counting warm-up, cool down, stretching, etc.

So you can start with 25 minutes of 15 seconds fast, 90 seconds easy for a week or two (or three), then 25 minutes of 30 seconds fast, 90 seconds recovery. Etc, etc. you are then just changing one variable at a time.

Notice that the idea is to run FAST, not HARD.

Lenny Leonard wrote:

Yep. But I will reiterate I don't think it is wise to go from no workouts to 5x1000m overnight. You need to build up to that workout that same way you would jump from a 5 mile long run to an 11 mile one just because that's what the fast guys do.

Here is another bit of advice. 5x 1000m with 90 sec rest takes about 25 minutes to complete without counting warm-up, cool down, stretching, etc.

So you can start with 25 minutes of 15 seconds fast, 90 seconds easy for a week or two (or three), then 25 minutes of 30 seconds fast, 90 seconds recovery. Etc, etc. you are then just changing one variable at a time.

Notice that the idea is to run FAST, not HARD.

Exactly, or even before 1000s, work up to a higher volume of 200s/300s/400s

HardLoper wrote:

Lenny Leonard wrote:

Yep. But I will reiterate I don't think it is wise to go from no workouts to 5x1000m overnight. You need to build up to that workout that same way you would jump from a 5 mile long run to an 11 mile one just because that's what the fast guys do.

Here is another bit of advice. 5x 1000m with 90 sec rest takes about 25 minutes to complete without counting warm-up, cool down, stretching, etc.

So you can start with 25 minutes of 15 seconds fast, 90 seconds easy for a week or two (or three), then 25 minutes of 30 seconds fast, 90 seconds recovery. Etc, etc. you are then just changing one variable at a time.

Notice that the idea is to run FAST, not HARD.

Exactly, or even before 1000s, work up to a higher volume of 200s/300s/400s

Thanks guys,

I will build it up slowly.

But as I said I'm not totally new to intervaltraining.

6-8x400, in around 1:38 with 400 jog rest is a workout I have done a couple times.

Or 2-3 1000's in 4:20-4:25 with 800-1000m jog rest. So in effect, with warm up and cool down this is a 'normal' run with three pick ups.

________ _

Do you [or Lenny or someone else] have suggestions for structuring a week of training?

1x tempo; ?km at ?pace

2x interval:

2x easy [maybe with a faster ending]

1x very easy but longer

You are just a regular guy so we don't have to go crazy on training. I would like to see you go to 2 workouts a week, 1 long run, and the rest easy. Just an example

M: 6 miles easy @8:00-8:30 pace

T: 1 mile warm up/cooldown 4 miles @ 6:45-7:00 (to start)

W: 6 miles easy

T: Fartlek 2 min on 1 min off 4 miles, 6:30 pace on 8:30 pace off

F: 6 miles easy

Weekend: 10-12 miles 8:30 pace.

great googly moogly, are you slow! I'm 14 years older than you and weigh 90 pounds more than you at 6-4 230. I will break 20 this year and have only been running 18 months.

br0ski wrote:

You are just a regular guy so we don't have to go crazy on training. I would like to see you go to 2 workouts a week, 1 long run, and the rest easy. Just an example

M: 6 miles easy @8:00-8:30 pace

T: 1 mile warm up/cooldown 4 miles @ 6:45-7:00 (to start)

W: 6 miles easy

T: Fartlek 2 min on 1 min off 4 miles, 6:30 pace on 8:30 pace off

F: 6 miles easy

Weekend: 10-12 miles 8:30 pace.

Thanks man, I am going to try this out.

The 4 mile run at 645-700 will be heavy, but lets see how it goes!

oldfatandmaybenotasslowasyou wrote:

great googly moogly, are you slow! I'm 14 years older than you and weigh 90 pounds more than you at 6-4 230. I will break 20 this year and have only been running 18 months.

Well, we don't disagree at all. You are very fa[s]t indeed ;)

"M: 6 miles easy @8:00-8:30 pace

T: 1 mile warm up/cooldown 4 miles @ 6:45-7:00 (to start)

W: 6 miles easy

T: Fartlek 2 min on 1 min off 4 miles, 6:30 pace on 8:30 pace off

F: 6 miles easy

Weekend: 10-12 miles 8:30 pace."

You need to start about 40 seconds per mile slower than listed here and build to these paces about 1 sec per mile per week for the next 40 weeks. Next fall you should run about 18:30.

30mpw? That's pitiful. You're barely running. Most of your runs are just a warm up distance. I started running at age 28 for a 2 minute 5K. 6'4" 177lb. After 3 years I run a 16:20. Some people are faster than others with no training but they can stall. Some people have horrible cardio systems that are like dormant powerful volcanoes waiting to errupt. Get out there and run some miles for god sake! I can't believe you've been running 3 years and still on 35 a week, why? Do you not enjoy running? When it's a gorgeous day outside in summer you don't kick yourself that you can't run today because you're recovering from running too much on all the other beautiful days?

When I started I did it all wrong. I ran hard all the time and my legs were always aching, especially my calves. I had no idea running slower would help me get faster. Your body has a set amount of energy to use for running, you can blow it all out and run fast for a short period and develop speed/speed endurance (maybe you can lead a 5K for 500meters this way) OR you can conserve that energy to run longer so you're using it to build your aerobic engine. Hell it only takes 4 weeks to develop your speed. It takes years to develop your aerobic potential.

You don't need speedwork, if you ran your 30 second 200m for 5000m you would finish in 12:30! So why try and run faster? Your problem is holding a pace so you do not lack speed/strength you lack endurance. Not a surprise on 30mpw.

I went sub 20 after running 25mpw for 4 weeks and 30mpw for 4 weeks. Once I hit sub 20 I was recovering way faster. The only good run I had before 40mpw was my Saturday long run because you need to run more than 3 miles just to get warmed up and in motion. Once I was running longer runs everyday I noticed my form changed after 4 miles, I became relaxed and it just felt right. This gives the brain more neurological experience from practice when you sleep at night and recover. When I was running just 3 mile runs it seemed like a long distance. Now when I run a long run and I have 3 miles left I smash the gears up because it's such a short distance mentally now I do way longer runs.

Here's my tip if you want to get fast and win some local races then don't get injured.

Build a base, develop your aerobic capacity by running everyday for long distances at easy paces. Your aerobic capacity is limitless but your basic speed is limited to your natural talent and it only takes 4 weeks to develop it. Plus most races are 95% endurance and 5% anaerobic.

There's no point in running fast until your aerobic capacity is built, this is done with long slow runs, train don't strain. Try and be consistent running at least 6 days a week, the more consistent you are the less niggles you will get. Once you reach high mileage you will have developed a very efficient good running form, strength and aerobic conditioning.

Here's a good mileage build up plan once you hit 25mpw. It has built in safety valves to prevent injury.

Four Week Block1 - 25, 17, 25, 12.5 miles

Four Week Block 2 - 30, 21, 30, 15 miles

Four Week Block 3 - 40, 28, 40, 20 miles

Four Week Block 4 - 45, 31, 45, 22.5 miles

Four Week Block 5 - 50, 35, 50, 35 miles

Four Week Block 6 - 55, 38, 55, 27.5 miles

Four Week Block 7 - 60, 42, 60, 30 miles

Four Week Block 8 - 65, 45, 65, 32.5 miles

Four Week Block 9 - 70, 49, 70, 35 miles

Four Week Block 10 - 75, 50, 75, 37.5 miles

Four Week Block 11 - 80, 56, 80, 40 miles

Four Week Block 12 - 85, 60, 85, 42.5 miles

Four Week Block 13 - 90, 62, 90, 45 miles

Four Week Block 14 - 95, 66, 95, 47.5 miles

Four Week Block 15 - 100, 70, 100, 50 miles

Long runs, start with 6 miles then increase one mile a week until you reach 10 miles. Then increase 2 miles every 2 weeks until you reach 18 miles, if you want to reach 30 mile long rules, continue to with long run build up...take time off as needed.

The Easy-Week Rule. If you cut your mileage by 30% the second week and 50% the fourth week, you can avoid build up stress. This is a safety valve which allows your body to recover and shake off the accumulate stress.

The second important rest concept is that it takes about 21 days for muscles to adapt to the stress when you move into a new and more challenging training program. After about 11 days your'll feel stronger when the muscles have adapted to about half the stress. There is a strong temptation then to think your're ready to increase the stress again, but the body is not quite ready. After three weeks, the body has theoretically adapted and is ready for a new stress load.

You want to finish every run with room left in the tank. After a few months you will notice your easy pace will get faster and faster without forcing it.

Last tip is try and eat a lot of fruit after a run within 2 hours because your body can uptake 8 times as much sugar after exercising. Your muscles will be screaming for sugar after a workout and starch/meat/dairy/vegetables just sit and burn in the stomach but fruit skips digestion it goes straight to absorption thanks to the simple sugars that don't need breaking down. Look at Yohan Blake he eats 16 ripe bananas a day to restore potassium and Bolt says fruit everytime. Get in as many calories as you can from ripe fruits like bananas, dates, mangos etc and at least 500ml of water for best recovery. Fat blocks bloodflow and peak power is all about bloodflow. The antioxidants in fruit speed up recovery.

26 minute 5K*

ricardo wrote:

br0ski wrote:

You are just a regular guy so we don't have to go crazy on training. I would like to see you go to 2 workouts a week, 1 long run, and the rest easy. Just an example

M: 6 miles easy @8:00-8:30 pace

T: 1 mile warm up/cooldown 4 miles @ 6:45-7:00 (to start)

W: 6 miles easy

T: Fartlek 2 min on 1 min off 4 miles, 6:30 pace on 8:30 pace off

F: 6 miles easy

Weekend: 10-12 miles 8:30 pace.

Thanks man, I am going to try this out.

The 4 mile run at 645-700 will be heavy, but lets see how it goes!

A tempo run is NOT supposed to be heavy. Run it slower. Ignore all of broski 's prescribed paces, he doesn't know what shape you're in or how those paces feel, only you do.

If you can run a 30 second 200 meter flat out with no real fast training, you have some ability. The next step is 3 times 200 meters in 40 seconds. And you really aren't slow, just untrained.

Repeats old LR training wisdom wrote:

A tempo run is NOT supposed to be heavy. Run it slower. Ignore all of broski 's prescribed paces, he doesn't know what shape you're in or how those paces feel, only you do.

Yes, you are right. I think he calculated that pace from a 20:00 5k? My standing PR's were run some months ago. 21:05 and a month later 42:20. So 6:45 is race pace

The fartlek and the slower end of the easy run pace are right on point I think, give or take a few seconds.

The right pace for the tempo run would be more like 7:15 I guess.

ricardo wrote:

Repeats old LR training wisdom wrote:

A tempo run is NOT supposed to be heavy. Run it slower. Ignore all of broski 's prescribed paces, he doesn't know what shape you're in or how those paces feel, only you do.

Yes, you are right. I think he calculated that pace from a 20:00 5k? My standing PR's were run some months ago. 21:05 and a month later 42:20. So 6:45 is race pace

The fartlek and the slower end of the easy run pace are right on point I think, give or take a few seconds.

The right pace for the tempo run would be more like 7:15 I guess.

I would guess a bit slower actually.

There is no point in calculating a "right" pace for the tempo run or a goal pace. Just run 4 miles comfortably hard, negative splits. It will probably be different from what the calculators and stupid formulas say, but that's okay.