Tom Sawyer vs. Lavern Gibson for nationals. Compare the courses.

I prefer Lavern Gibson for 2 reasons:

1) It has an epic feel to it. I can't really put my finger on it, but watching/running a meet there just feels important. I thinks it's a combination of the knowing the great races that have happened in the past combined with the usually ominous looking weather (cloudy, windy, wet).

2) The start is far, far superior. An 800 meter straightaway is perfect. I also love that runners come back through that section a second time, giving a perfect visual representation of where everyone is halfway through the race. (men's race of course). Louisville on the other hand has a terrible ditch less than 400 meters in and then narrows considerably. The rest of the course is fine I guess, but the start ruins it.

As a coach I prefer Lavern for a variety of reasons, the main one being the start. Tom Sawyer's first turn is too early in the race and too narrow. The runners are still bunched.

Both venues have their perks and both programs do a good job hosting the meet, but I can't think of a single aspect of the entire experience that has been better in Louisville, than in Terre Haute.

I'm not a big fan of Terre Haute in general, and wish we had more alternatives for Nationals, but only if the other venues can do an equal or better job of hosting. In my 26 years of experience, not missing a single championship, no one has done as good of a job. You would think a more prestigious University would do a better job hosting. "They have opportunities to do things smaller schools can't afford." That hasn't been the case though.

I've been a spectator at both and have run, not raced, and they both are great courses. LG has appeal because it was built solely for XC. It isn't a public park, golf course or anything else but a XC course. That makes it special.

TS, though flat, has a more 'scenic' variety that gives a more natural 'running through the woods' type feel. TS is one of Louisville's better parks for runners and walkers.

Both are fun to watch races at, especially if you plan out your points and run from place to place.

I'm sure the LG fanboys will be dryhumping the leg of LG and touting it as the greatest thing since sliced bread, but in all honesty, LG is as close to barren wasteland as you can get. Most years, it's cold, wet, windy and looking like something where they'd film an episode of Naked and Afraid.

Atmosphere and the scenic element have greater potential at TS, and TS is so much more accessible. People will always argue about whether TS is true XC, but how many hills and muddy patches do you need to transition a not-so-true XC course into a true one? With 10k, there's plenty of challenge with how you run the race, more than enough to compensate for some supposed lack of hills. it's also so much easier to see the finish at TS, which tends to be one of the most exciting aspects of racing anyhow.

Terre Haute is one of the worst towns in America. Speaking as a fan who likes to indulge in a cocktail or two or eight it really stinks having the meet in that town with no great places to partake in such debauchery.

Louisville on the other hand is amazing (5th street live), bourbon trail, etc. I love the feel of that place.

Plus Tom Sawyer was a way cooler person then Lavern Gibson (whoever that is). Actually I looked it up and bless old Laverns heart, what a generous philanthropist but seriously although fictional the shenanigans of Tom Sawyer are legendary and should be strived too by every young man in America.

Lastly, I can't understand how one could think that having a race in a city without a major airport is a good idea. What are we all supposed to do fly into that cestpool of stank that is Indianapolis? We could fly to Chicago and drive 5 hours but WTF, that is a long way.

Irwin sniff my Schiff wrote:

Terre Haute is one of the worst towns in America. Speaking as a fan who likes to indulge in a cocktail or two or eight it really stinks having the meet in that town with no great places to partake in such debauchery.

While Terre Haute is not Louisville it certainly is not the worst city in America. Have you seen the Swopes Art Museum or walked around downtown? If all your doing is checking out Honey Creek Mall and staying at the Holiday in I'd agree it's a crap hole. Also a world class Holocaust museum. Like I said this is not Chicago, Louisville or Nashville but we are a great city with great people.

Tom Sawyer Park is named after E.P Sawyer who was a local judge and father of journalist Diane Sawyer. I found this on Wikipedia.

old,butlovetorun wrote:

The wind at Tom Sawyer will not be near the factor it was/is at Lavern Gibson. Someone (a la Mr. Curtin) could scamper away, screwing up Mr. The King Cheserek's typical plan to wait,wait,wait and then hammer the final 2+ K.

Hmmm ... I wouldn't put down Cheserek as being that arrogant. His reserve, a quiet defenese.

What is everyone smoking?!! This is such an obvious no brainer-

EPTS is absolutely horrible for a "fair start. The entire reason why we argue every December for hours on end is to give all 31 teams on the line at Nats an equal opportunity to A) get to the meet and B) perform without any disadvantage. Sawyer park makes this impossible with a ditch that should be filled over and a turn happening all in the first 400m!!

End thread.

Seriously, there is nothing else to consider here. As a high school course or a race with 15-20 teams it would likely pass but for NCAA's.....dreaming. Love the city, hate the course for fairness, love the course for scenic cool vibe, hate the course for ease of access to multiple places on first and last 2ks.

Also, people keep saying there are zero hills, lol. Jog the course and let me know if you think the hill at 1600m wouldn't affect anything slightly, oh wait, you never jogged the course and that section is so far off the beaten path that you've never seen it. Not trying to be a jerk (attitude added for emphasis)

I'm not saying there are mountains, let's face it in today's college racing landscape we aren't trying to race 6/10k on a difficult course after killing ourselves at conference then region on shortish rest, but there are inclines that tax you. At the 2k mark as well as 2k to go.

LG will never host the NCAA meet due to location. Sry, but everyone learned that lesson from Des Moine yrs ago. Better course, bad location.

It's 4th Street Live, which is an overpopulated tourist attraction. Try Bardstown Road, The Highlands, or Crescent Hill for a better experience.

Cherokee and Seneca Park is a better running experience followed by Iroqouis. There is also the RiverWalk and someday the 100 mile Louisville Loop.

For XC I like Seneca Park but I'm not sure you could do a large 10k there. The 5k there is a good combination of a lighting fast loop and a steep hell of a hill.

Alan

Shhhh...don't tell all the college kids about Bardstown Road, at least the more southern part past Eastern Pkwy. Nice and quiet there because the college kids mostly go to 4th Street Live and the bars on Baxter Ave. I won't bash 4th Street Live. It's great for the convention crowd and the college kids.

The XC in Seneca Park (may run over there today and do the grass loop you're talking about a few times to stay on the grass) couldn't hold a big XC meet. Certainly not a large 10k. I see youth XC races there from time to time, but nothing bigger than that. Is there a HS meet at Seneca or something?

I like that some Louisville people pop up on threads like this.

afgasdfga wrote:

Shhhh...don't tell all the college kids about Bardstown Road, at least the more southern part past Eastern Pkwy. Nice and quiet there because the college kids mostly go to 4th Street Live and the bars on Baxter Ave. I won't bash 4th Street Live. It's great for the convention crowd and the college kids.

The XC in Seneca Park (may run over there today and do the grass loop you're talking about a few times to stay on the grass) couldn't hold a big XC meet. Certainly not a large 10k. I see youth XC races there from time to time, but nothing bigger than that. Is there a HS meet at Seneca or something?

I like that some Louisville people pop up on threads like this.

I've never seen any XC races at Seneca, large or small. I know that EP hosts the one large HS meet every year. I've been there many of times watching my sons compete and have always enjoyed spectating there.

I can only imagine that out of towners would much rather come to Louisville than Terra Haute. LV is an awesome course for a large race but the city of Louisville just has so much more to offer.

The square donuts alone in Terre Haute give Laverne Gibson the advantage. It is also much more spectator friendly though a couple paths for spectators in the low lying areas would help those that run between vantage points. I've been to both courses when the weather was crappy. I like that the course is just for Xc and not a multi use park in any city usa.

Apple pie wrote:

Sawyer park makes this impossible with a ditch that should be filled over and a turn happening all in the first 400m!!

You mean cross country? Real cross country is run through the muck and occasionally runners may nearly (gasp!) come to a stop. Better athletes know how to handle the stresses of an arduous course. We should get back to the roots of Cross. Isn't it what toughens us up for running faster on the track?

afgasdfga wrote:

Shhhh...don't tell all the college kids about Bardstown Road, at least the more southern part past Eastern Pkwy. Nice and quiet there because the college kids mostly go to 4th Street Live and the bars on Baxter Ave. I won't bash 4th Street Live. It's great for the convention crowd and the college kids.

The XC in Seneca Park (may run over there today and do the grass loop you're talking about a few times to stay on the grass) couldn't hold a big XC meet. Certainly not a large 10k. I see youth XC races there from time to time, but nothing bigger than that. Is there a HS meet at Seneca or something?

I like that some Louisville people pop up on threads like this.

They used to (still do?) have HS meets at Seneca. I ran the AAU regional meet there as a junior back in '94. It was around the flat loop, across the street, around a bit then up the big hill in the back, around a bit then back on the flat loop. I've ran countless mile repeats on that loop when I lived in Louisville.

I lived waaaay out Bardstown RD past the Gene Snyder almost to Mt Washington. Peaceful.

Alan

Sigh... wrote:

Apple pie wrote:

Sawyer park makes this impossible with a ditch that should be filled over and a turn happening all in the first 400m!!

You mean cross country? Real cross country is run through the muck and occasionally runners may nearly (gasp!) come to a stop. Better athletes know how to handle the stresses of an arduous course. We should get back to the roots of Cross. Isn't it what toughens us up for running faster on the track?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_country_running#/media/File:Ind_cross_country_1924_Summer_Olympics.jpg

Please child. If you honestly believe that a plea for a fair start (as laid out in the rule book) is somehow a gripe that the course should be pancake flat. Check yourself. I don't care what the hell the course does after all positions on the line get an equal crack at a fair start. I'm not telling my athletes to pull a hamstring going balls out in the first 300, when box 10 on the other side doesn't have to deal with the same things we do and can cruise out.

And no, I do not think running in gnarly hilly, mud infested courses would "toughen you up" any more than a proper training system with equally proper racing opportunities against stiff competition.