So for a long time I have kept my team at a pretty standard 30-40 min + 5 x strides the day before a race day and 1 hr recovery the day after race day. Most of my runners are in the 16:50-18:00 min zone so I might tweak it a little depending on the runner.
For important meets we would scale back on this, but for the next month of less important meets I'm looking for some ideas to add a bit of variety to these sandwich days and would love to hear ideas. tks in advance
anybody?
Depends on what they need, and how far away their targets are. And their level/how deep they go on race day.
I wouldn't do anything before races. A Mon/Wed or Tue/Thu workout, Saturday race leaves them prepared to race. A Mon/Wed Workout Thursday dual or other combination also works.
With inexperienced runners, I would put in a long cool down and make that the long run day. Experienced runners can double back the next day for a full length long run at an easier pace with less difficulty. If you think you're at the point in the season for more quality work, than do that during the cooldown. 6x90"- 90" fartlek can be handled by most, and a good starting point. I wouldn't do intervals longer than 1k/3:00. Even if the kids are not physically taxed, they will likely be mentally taxed. If you want a tempo/.aerobic stimulus, then just do short recoveries. 90" on, 30" off. Or 3'-2'-1' sets off 30"-60".
It's hard to give good answers without more context.
Tyuio wrote:
Depends on what they need, and how far away their targets are. And their level/how deep they go on race day.
I wouldn't do anything before races. A Mon/Wed or Tue/Thu workout, Saturday race leaves them prepared to race. A Mon/Wed Workout Thursday dual or other combination also works.
With inexperienced runners, I would put in a long cool down and make that the long run day. Experienced runners can double back the next day for a full length long run at an easier pace with less difficulty. If you think you're at the point in the season for more quality work, than do that during the cooldown. 6x90"- 90" fartlek can be handled by most, and a good starting point. I wouldn't do intervals longer than 1k/3:00. Even if the kids are not physically taxed, they will likely be mentally taxed. If you want a tempo/.aerobic stimulus, then just do short recoveries. 90" on, 30" off. Or 3'-2'-1' sets off 30"-60".
It's hard to give good answers without more context.
Ok thanks. Footlocker is the championship race for most of them which is on Nov 28. They have Monday races for the next four weeks. I generally do Mon-race, Tues-recovery long run, Wed-quality, Thurs-moderate aerobic work, Fri-quality, Sat-stregthening/moderate aerobic work/or rest, Sun-30 min + strides.
But you are saying incorporate a long run or fartlek into the cool down after a meet? That would seem to free up some time later in the week...
care to elaborate some more on that week you posted above? it sounds like a lot.
Sounds like a good schedule for the middle of the season.
You want to keep the volume high, I'm guessing your quality work is right now in the higher/volume, lower intensity work, like threshold or slower-than-5k pace, and will get more specific, or 5k race pace stuff.
If you think your runners can handle the training load, I would use that time to introduce/build/maintain whatever system you think it missing. For example, if you took away the long run day in favor of more recovery, make post-race long, in order to maintain some of it. Or, if you get more specific and aren't doing threshold stuff later on, just a little bit of threshold stuff on race day could maintain it. The depleted state will lower performance (adjust your expectations.paces vs. a normal workout) but boosts the adaptation: you don't need a full load of the stimulus to maintain. 1/4 -2/3s of a normal workout, at most.
So, you have a long season to go. What do you want to develop this far out? A long run would be perfect, but a full, energy depleted long run the next day would be more beneficial than the shortened run after a race. But again, as long as your runners can handle it without fatiguing. If they seem fatigued and you still want to get in a long run, then put an extended cooldown on race day and let Tuesday be just for recovery.
Or, short speed work. Like 60-80m hill sprints, full recovery. The goal is not to tax their energy systems, but to focus on power and technique, for which you need to recover between reps. This can introduce the speed you aim for at the end of the season: turn those sprints into 150s and 200s, and then the speed workouts later in the season will be less jarring.
Or if their high school kids who just need to learn to run together, then make them do a long cooldown as a whole group. No timing, no splintering off, everyone together to enjoy the post-race atmosphere. Usually the most relaxed and fun time for a runner to be around their team. If they need to learn to toughen up, do the same, just with a structured run. For kids who aren't tough, having a team around them during the hardest parts will get them there.
Neither the day before nor the day after matter as far as training goes.
Tyuio wrote:
Sounds like a good schedule for the middle of the season.
You want to keep the volume high, I'm guessing your quality work is right now in the higher/volume, lower intensity work, like threshold or slower-than-5k pace, and will get more specific, or 5k race pace stuff.
If you think your runners can handle the training load, I would use that time to introduce/build/maintain whatever system you think it missing. For example, if you took away the long run day in favor of more recovery, make post-race long, in order to maintain some of it. Or, if you get more specific and aren't doing threshold stuff later on, just a little bit of threshold stuff on race day could maintain it. The depleted state will lower performance (adjust your expectations.paces vs. a normal workout) but boosts the adaptation: you don't need a full load of the stimulus to maintain. 1/4 -2/3s of a normal workout, at most.
So, you have a long season to go. What do you want to develop this far out? A long run would be perfect, but a full, energy depleted long run the next day would be more beneficial than the shortened run after a race. But again, as long as your runners can handle it without fatiguing. If they seem fatigued and you still want to get in a long run, then put an extended cooldown on race day and let Tuesday be just for recovery.
Or, short speed work. Like 60-80m hill sprints, full recovery. The goal is not to tax their energy systems, but to focus on power and technique, for which you need to recover between reps. This can introduce the speed you aim for at the end of the season: turn those sprints into 150s and 200s, and then the speed workouts later in the season will be less jarring.
Or if their high school kids who just need to learn to run together, then make them do a long cooldown as a whole group. No timing, no splintering off, everyone together to enjoy the post-race atmosphere. Usually the most relaxed and fun time for a runner to be around their team. If they need to learn to toughen up, do the same, just with a structured run. For kids who aren't tough, having a team around them during the hardest parts will get them there.
Thanks for this. Yeah, let me be more specific about what we are doing right now for my top runners who want to go 16:30/40 by Footlocker:
M-Race w/ 20 min cool down
T-60-80 min easy recovery
W-5x1000 on trail loop at low VO2 pace w/ 3 min jog recov
Th-5-7x 80 m hill sprints w/ full recov
F-35 min tempo w/ strides or flying 30s
S-stregthening/lifting or rest
Sun-30 min easy + 5xstrides
M-Race
irrelevant wrote:
Neither the day before nor the day after matter as far as training goes.
So then you should just throw away two days a week?
what????? wrote:
irrelevant wrote:Neither the day before nor the day after matter as far as training goes.
So then you should just throw away two days a week?
For "training" yes. The purpose of running is to race better, not trying to work around those pesky races that get in the way.
what????? wrote:
irrelevant wrote:Neither the day before nor the day after matter as far as training goes.
So then you should just throw away two days a week?
A race is a training stimulus. Once you get out of base work and into serious training, the key sessions need to get progressively harder, and you need to go easier on the days in between, to recover and adapt.
You have to ask yourself if the race they just did was enough of a stimulus to produce further improvement. If it was not significantly better than previous races - maybe an easy team win, maybe shorter than usual, maybe the runner just didn't dig very deep and knows it - then you can tack on some more work in the cool-down. Make it a "bigger day" for those runners who need more stimulus; but make sure the ones who had a great race just cool down after. But for heaven's sake, be fresh when the gun goes, and run easily for 1-2 days after to get the adaptation from all of that stimulus.
150s or 200s on grass are a nice complement after a poor race. So are short hills. Anything longer is hard to do with good form after racing. You're going to take it slow the next day anyway, so it's a chance to do something you might not fit in otherwise.
You're athletes are overtrained, especially if the best are only in the 16's for 5K. They are, or by the end of season, will be coming into races flat and fatigued. Speaking honestly, I feel sorry for your athletes as this training program is setting them up for failure when it counts the most, at the end of the season.
Seems like you have only Saturday and Sunday as the recovery days each week. 2 easier days in a row is not enough time to recover from 5 hard days in a row week after week. Hence, the statement above that your athletes will be toast by the end of the season.
More rest throughout the week.
minimum effective dose!
You haven't done speed work of any kind in a long time, a little will go a long way.
treeline wrote:
Thanks for this. Yeah, let me be more specific about what we are doing right now for my top runners who want to go 16:30/40 by Footlocker:
M-Race w/ 20 min cool down
T-60-80 min easy recovery
W-5x1000 on trail loop at low VO2 pace w/ 3 min jog recov
Th-5-7x 80 m hill sprints w/ full recov
F-35 min tempo w/ strides or flying 30s
S-stregthening/lifting or rest
Sun-30 min easy + 5xstrides
M-Race
I'll tell you what I think.
I think you're asking the wrong question. You are asking how to add more, but not asking how to progress/develop what you're already doing. I may misunderstand you, but in the "what we are doing right now", you make it sound like the schedule and workouts are pretty static. If you .want to adapt, you need to change the stimulus.
Repeating a stimulus will not give you the same adaptation each time. Your runners will adapt to the 5x 1000m session, and need a new stimulus to further adapt.
Instead of adding more, progress more. Your goal is to make the workouts more specific to 5k pace in November. So Do a 35' tempo one week, then a 15'-10'-10' with 3' rest going a little faster. Then do 7x5'-1' fartlek, and then 6xMile off 1'. Then 5x Mile with 2'-3' rest, and finally 4x Mile at 5k pace. Each Workout builds to the next, and each workout is a new stimulus. Same thing with the 1000s. How will you progress the adaptation? You could run them faster each week, but experience and science shows that prioritization is better. If you're going from the top-down later in the week, consider bottom up earlier: A 30 minute run with 6x 40"- 20" sprints. Then 6x 1'-1' sprints. Then 10x400 with 1'. Then Then 800's with 90", and then run the specific 5k workout of 5-6x1000m right before you're trying to run your best 5k race.
All the while, maintain what you've already built. Keep the long run to maintain general aerobic strength, keep the hill sprints to maintain general speed.
Then ask yourself if you need something the day of a race. You might, but look at how your schedule is progressing to find out what you need to maintain and what systems you need to "check-up" on. You may find that they're loosing speed quickly. Then do sprints. Or if their loosing aerobic strength, then do a long run.
Last bit. Don't be afraid to trash your plans. I'm a teacher. When I realize there is a better way, I do it the better way, regardless of what work and lessons I've already planned out.
Tyuio wrote:
treeline wrote:Thanks for this. Yeah, let me be more specific about what we are doing right now for my top runners who want to go 16:30/40 by Footlocker:
M-Race w/ 20 min cool down
T-60-80 min easy recovery
W-5x1000 on trail loop at low VO2 pace w/ 3 min jog recov
Th-5-7x 80 m hill sprints w/ full recov
F-35 min tempo w/ strides or flying 30s
S-stregthening/lifting or rest
Sun-30 min easy + 5xstrides
M-Race
I'll tell you what I think.
I think you're asking the wrong question. You are asking how to add more, but not asking how to progress/develop what you're already doing. I may misunderstand you, but in the "what we are doing right now", you make it sound like the schedule and workouts are pretty static. If you .want to adapt, you need to change the stimulus.
Repeating a stimulus will not give you the same adaptation each time. Your runners will adapt to the 5x 1000m session, and need a new stimulus to further adapt.
Instead of adding more, progress more. Your goal is to make the workouts more specific to 5k pace in November. So Do a 35' tempo one week, then a 15'-10'-10' with 3' rest going a little faster. Then do 7x5'-1' fartlek, and then 6xMile off 1'. Then 5x Mile with 2'-3' rest, and finally 4x Mile at 5k pace. Each Workout builds to the next, and each workout is a new stimulus. Same thing with the 1000s. How will you progress the adaptation? You could run them faster each week, but experience and science shows that prioritization is better. If you're going from the top-down later in the week, consider bottom up earlier: A 30 minute run with 6x 40"- 20" sprints. Then 6x 1'-1' sprints. Then 10x400 with 1'. Then Then 800's with 90", and then run the specific 5k workout of 5-6x1000m right before you're trying to run your best 5k race.
All the while, maintain what you've already built. Keep the long run to maintain general aerobic strength, keep the hill sprints to maintain general speed.
Then ask yourself if you need something the day of a race. You might, but look at how your schedule is progressing to find out what you need to maintain and what systems you need to "check-up" on. You may find that they're loosing speed quickly. Then do sprints. Or if their loosing aerobic strength, then do a long run.
Last bit. Don't be afraid to trash your plans. I'm a teacher. When I realize there is a better way, I do it the better way, regardless of what work and lessons I've already planned out.
Fantastic, Thanks.