This is super interesting. I've heard the rumors of drug usage by Athletics West athletes for years and knew coach/physio Dick Brown was an influential figure. So when I read in the other thread from RW that Suzy Favor Hamilton says former AW coach Dick Brown told her she didn't need to dope I found that interesting. What I didn't know was the Dick Brown has publicly admitted that AW athletes were on roids which I found out after I googled "Dick Brown Athletics West doping." The AP writes "(Brown said) Athletics West did not pay for performance-enhancing steroids but encouraged those using them to be monitored by doctors. The doctors' bills were paid by Athletics West's insurance provider Brown said."
From Runnersworld:
"4. She asked a coach whether she should be using performance-enhancing drugs. The coach told her not to.
After Favor Hamilton didn't perform well at the 1996 Olympics, she met with Dick Brown, her coach in Eugene, Oregon, and asked, “Am I missing the boat here? Should I be using drugs?†He was adamant that she was talented enough to win without them. Later Favor Hamilton describes how offended she was when a meet promoter pulled her aside and told her, “You have to win and to do that, you know what you have to do,†implying that drugs would help her. And Favor Hamilton mentions Regina Jacobs, her rival, writing: “I cannot say I was surprised when she tested positive for steroid use in 2003, validating my long-held suspicions.â€
http://www.runnersworld.com/elite-runners/7-things-to-know-about-the-suzy-favor-hamilton-book?cid=soc_Runner%27s%20World%20-%20RunnersWorld_FBPAGE_Runner%E2%80%99s%20World__News
Now the article on Brown
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2457&dat=19920116&id=BKVJAAAAIBAJ&sjid=lg0NAAAAIBAJ&pg=1377,153975&hl=en
The AP writes "(Brown said) Athletics West did not pay for performance-enhancing steroids but encouraged those using them to be monitored by doctors. The doctors' bills were paid by Athletics West's insurance provider Brown said."
plus the article says the Nike tell-all book, not Brown said two athletes tried blood doping.
Athletics West Coach Dick Brown (Admitted to AW Athletes Being on Steroids but) told Suzy Favor she didn't need to dope
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Athletics West athletes? *cough* Salazar *cough*
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I'm afraid "SFH says..." doesn't count for much with me.
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From Bowerman to AW to NOPe. The doping legacy continues.
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I understand why you can't freely have people supposedly in the know throwing accusations around -- it would become slanderous or libelous very quickly and almost none of the cases would be publicly addressed by governing bodies. Look at Magness getting totally dumped on by Salazar after he simply told WADA/USADA what he observed. Salazar could more easily initiate a slander/libel case against him than USADA could initiate a case against Salazar.
It irks me that so many people know something, but USADA won't act until in their minds they've already proven it beyond a reasonable doubt, which is extremely difficult to do. In the meantime we don't get any metaphorical arrests or indictments.
Brown and Hamilton ride a thin line between hero and villain. Do they even have ethical stances on doping? Was competition always about finding ways to win and danger of getting caught was what stopped them instead of ethics? -
Interesting that SFH sounds like she was open to using PEDs if Brown would have recommended it.
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She was open to a lot of things, if you catch my drift.
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Dick Brown and Bob Sevene were interviewed in the Candadian Documentary "Ben Johnson and the Quest for Gold"
http://m.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Daily/Issues/2004/07/Issue-199/Sponsorships-Advertising-Marketing/Documentary-Says-Nike-Club-Educated-Athletes-On-Steroids.aspx -
Sudden Impact wrote:
Dick Brown and Bob Sevene were interviewed in the Candadian Documentary "Ben Johnson and the Quest for Gold"
http://m.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Daily/Issues/2004/07/Issue-199/Sponsorships-Advertising-Marketing/Documentary-Says-Nike-Club-Educated-Athletes-On-Steroids.aspx
I've seen that video linked on these message boards a couple of times before. I've always found it surprising that it hasn't generated more of an outcry. It's like, there are all these doping stories out in the last few months that generate huge amounts of interest, and sometimes the evidence is kind of convoluted and tenuous. But this video, as I recall, makes it perfectly clear that Athletics West included some steroid-users, and nobody seems all that interested. -
Shoebacca wrote:
USADA won't act until in their minds they've already proven it beyond a reasonable doubt, which is extremely difficult to do.
About ten years ago, USADA adopted a less stringent burden of proof:
3.1 BURDENS AND STANDARDS OF PROOF
USADA shall have the burden of establishing that an Anti-Doping Policy Violation has occurred. The standard of proof
shall be whether USADA has established an Anti-Doping Policy Violation to the comfortable satisfaction of the hearing
panel bearing in mind the seriousness of the allegation which is made. This standard of proof in all cases is greater than
a mere balance of probability but less than proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Where this Anti-Doping Policy places the
burden of proof upon the Athlete or other Person alleged to have committed an Anti-Doping Policy Violation to rebut a
presumption or establish specified facts or circumstances, the standard of proof shall be by a balance of probability. -
Not so much interest because it happened so long ago, there have been a lot of previous stories alluding to what went on back then (even from AlSal himself) and it comes as no surprise to those of us who competed back then. Steroids were very prevalent in the college and pro track ranks back in the 70's and 80's which might come as a surprise to the casual fan but not to anyone who was on the inside.
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It is not interesting because it was 30 years ago.
Athletics West is in the history books. It was a different time. The eastern euopean countries had state sponsored drug programs. -
been around 'ya know wrote:
It is not interesting because it was 30 years ago.
Athletics West is in the history books. It was a different time. The eastern euopean countries had state sponsored drug programs.
I don't necessarily disagree with you - there comes a point at which events are too long ago for people to get all excited - but what is that point, and why? People seem really interested in what Paula Radcliffe was doing 10 years ago. I'm sure if some dirt emerged on what Geb/Komen/El G etc were doing 15-20 years ago, people would take note. And heck, some people seemed interested when accusations were made against Allan Wells for what he might have done back in 1980.
And I'm not sure I agree with your assertion that it was a "different time" back then (other than in the obvious literal sense). The prevalent view is that drug use is absolutely rampant in all major sports nowadays, and that some countries have an especially deeply embedded PED culture. How is that so different to the time period in which AW operated? -
The Elephant in the Room wrote:
Athletics West athletes? *cough* Salazar *cough*
Why is it when anyone tries to have a reasonable discussion about PEDs, some moron gets on here and tries to make it about Salazar and the NOP?
Do you have any idea how many athletes ran for AW at one time or another. Guess what? Chris Fox ran for AW and he coaches at Syracuse. Steve Plascencia ran for AW and he coaches at Minnesota. Should we keep going? Ok. Brian Diemer (Coach at Calvin College), Doug Padilla (BYU Track Ops), and so many others. Tony Sandoval, Joan Benoit, and yes, Mary Decker, Jim Spivey, Craig Virgin... they all ran for AW. Staff included folks like Bob Sevene and Jack Daniels.
AW was an awesome track club and many great athletes ran for the club. Was everyone who ran for AW clean? Probably not, but the vast majority were clean and good people. Many have gone on and contributed to the sport in a positive way.
Can the same be said about yourself? -
AW was a good thing wrote:
Why is it when anyone tries to have a reasonable discussion about PEDs, some moron gets on here and tries to make it about Salazar and the NOP?
Idiot, because Salazar is the "worlds greatest distance coach"--cough--and is heavily involved with knowing what meds his athletes are taking, and should be taking. -
Placencia and Decker? LOL.
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AW was a good thing wrote:
The Elephant in the Room wrote:
Athletics West athletes? *cough* Salazar *cough*
Why is it when anyone tries to have a reasonable discussion about PEDs, some moron gets on here and tries to make it about Salazar and the NOP?
Do you have any idea how many athletes ran for AW at one time or another. Guess what? Chris Fox ran for AW and he coaches at Syracuse. Steve Plascencia ran for AW and he coaches at Minnesota. Should we keep going? Ok. Brian Diemer (Coach at Calvin College), Doug Padilla (BYU Track Ops), and so many others. Tony Sandoval, Joan Benoit, and yes, Mary Decker, Jim Spivey, Craig Virgin... they all ran for AW. Staff included folks like Bob Sevene and Jack Daniels.
AW was an awesome track club and many great athletes ran for the club. Was everyone who ran for AW clean? Probably not, but the vast majority were clean and good people. Many have gone on and contributed to the sport in a positive way.
Can the same be said about yourself?
Didn't Jeff Drenth run for AW? -
AW PEDbeer wrote:
AW was a good thing wrote:
Why is it when anyone tries to have a reasonable discussion about PEDs, some moron gets on here and tries to make it about Salazar and the NOP?
Idiot, because Salazar is the "worlds greatest distance coach"--cough--and is heavily involved with knowing what meds his athletes are taking, and should be taking.
I thought Salazar wasn't involved with Athletics West beyond just wearing the uniform. He was still being coached by Dellinger. Perhaps Malmo can correct me if I'm wrong. -
asdfgh wrote:
I thought Salazar wasn't involved with Athletics West beyond just wearing the uniform. He was still being coached by Dellinger. Perhaps Malmo can correct me if I'm wrong.
How is that any different than Don Clary, Tom Byers, Henry Marsh, Doug Padilla, Jim Spivey or dozens of others? -
West Eugene wrote:
asdfgh wrote:
I thought Salazar wasn't involved with Athletics West beyond just wearing the uniform. He was still being coached by Dellinger. Perhaps Malmo can correct me if I'm wrong.
How is that any different than Don Clary, Tom Byers, Henry Marsh, Doug Padilla, Jim Spivey or dozens of others?
Because for others they were coached by Athletics West coaches, trained together, and were treated by Athletics West doctors. This included Jeff Drenth who died at Athletics West.
The difference is the Athletics West doping allegations seemingly wouldn't apply to those runners that just wore the uniform.
