what full deconditioning looks like: 57 and pitiful

Consider this... wrote:

Hey KudzuRunner,

I know how you feel. I'm only 49, but I've dealt with both the massive deconditioning thing as well as chronic hamstring issues. Here are two articles you should look at regarding rehabbing from hamstring injury and maintaining healthy hamstrings:

http://www.uwhealth.org/files/uwhealth/docs/pdf3/sportsrehab_sherry.pdfhttp://running.competitor.com/2014/03/photos/best-ways-treat-hamstring-injuries_97314

The articles overlap quite a bit, but they combine to give some great advice.....

Good Luck!

Thanks!! Extremely helpful articles.

Kudzu,

You have been on here a long time and we all are pulling for you but you have not gotten close to deconditioned yet. Let me tell you a little story.

Back in 1977, my dad built a house for a recently promoted vice president of one of the toy companies, Hasbro, I think. This guy's previous job had involved lots of travel for 20+ years. He was about 47 years old and had kids 6 and 8 years old.

When he got promoted, one of the perks was the company was going to buy him life insurance so he had to get his first physical since a track team physical in HS about 30 years. He hadn't been a great athlete but he had played football and run track through HS. What the doctor found was scary, a real example of deconditioned so they wouldn't give him life insurance. To the company's credit, they made it part of his job to get into good enough shape so that he could get life insurance.

Anyway, the doctor recommended running. As the story goes, he couldn't run more than 50 steps but his wife kept getting him out of bed and as a VP he didn't have to travel much so he had time and he kept at it. My dad bumped into him at the hardware store in the spring of 1979. He was unrecognizable. He had lost 100+ pounds. He was running about 50 mpw and had just run a 10 mile race in about 80 minutes. If he can get back into shape, you can too. Good luck

Oh, as you indicated in the post before I started writing this, hills, running in sand or at least grass, carioca, basketball, there are lots of things that you can do to keep from constantly doing calisthenics and weights but some of them are necessary. One big reason this happens to many people is that they sit all day at work. If you can cut the amount you sit, you can get by with doing less cross training.

Kudzu Runner, I'm older than you by a decade. Here's my take.

It's absolutely critical that older runners avoid injury. I literally carry tape and at least two pair of shoes and inserts to every workout. If I get even a twinge that continues rather than going away, I stop and try my best to fix it... not much help with a hamstring, but it works for foot, ankle, knee, etc.

Eat right. Take supplements... vitamin B, C, D3, E, selenium, multivitamin, etc. The cells become less efficient in using nutrients, but you can compensate somewhat by making sure they have enough of the raw materials for healing, recovery, and reducing low-grade, chronic stress to the immune system.

Here are some things that I've found work with a minor hamstring injury.

-Epsom salt baths

-The stick (It works for the body of hamstring, but doesn't help much when the injury is where the hamstring connects to the hip.)

- The QPoint2 recovery ball. It's basically two hard lacrosse-sized balls in a sleeve that you microwave and then sit on. It helps a lot. You can find them at

http://www.qworkoutrecovery.com

. Don't microwave them for 90 seconds. That's way too long... 45 seconds will be enough. I have the combo set, but I've never used the single ball. This thing is pretty amazing. If it doesn't work for you, you're only out about half the cost of one massage session.

- Don't stretch a fresh hamstring injury. You're just re-tearing scar tissue that isn't strong enough to hold yet. If you hurt it stretching (or running) the healing process restarts at day one.

- You can begin VERY light stretching in a couple of weeks and resume normal stretching after 6-8 weeks. Normal stretching should never be done with cold muscles.

- If in doubt, stretch easier instead of harder.

- I jog a mile or so, do some dynamic drills that include light stretching, do some easy strides, and then do the hamstring and hip flexor (a problem for me) drills again.

- Avoid sprints and speedwork. Limit your range of motion until the hamstring heals. If you break this rule and re-injure the hamstring, healing starts over at day one.

There's more, but this is too long already.

Try nordic hamstring curls. Imo, they are the "apple a day" that keeps the doctor away. Don't collapse body on return to up position, push back up with arms and keep body straight. I developed a set of exercises that I do 6 days a week. It took almost two years to rebuild my lower body strength. No issues for sometime now.

Get a routine and don't deviate! Good luck!

It's not just your age. I'm 34 and also had 8 weeks off recently. I was hitting 18 minute 5K and I couldn't even run 3 miles without stopping when I came back, even after running a few 2 milers.

You can beat your age, you just have to recover smarter. Try a fruit diet. Simple sugars help recovery.

1. The antioxidants in fruit also speed it up. Keeps excess inflammation at bay so I weigh less than I would otherwise on equal cals and training.

2. Fats block blood flow. More fat in your diet, less blood flow. POWER and STAMINA is ALL about peak blood flow. That's what viagra does and why I don't need to use viagra unlike my eldest brother or some of my paleo friends who do anabolics.

3. If you want to get faster, you need to understand the importance of sugar intake and how it benefits hemoglobin production. Higher your hemo, the faster you will run, all things equal.

Start with 700g of pure carbs a day.

KudzuRunner wrote:

59 here wrote:

What has been your strength and flexibility program over the past 20 years?

No strength training whatever. Some minimal stretching before and after runs. I've started to up that, slowly, and I've added a couple of dynamic stretches--including, usefully (and carefully), some punter-style kicks to about 90 degrees.

I would welcome suggestions for hamstring strengthening exercises, particularly those that can be done at home, without specialized equipment. Give me a couple that work and that anybody can do, and I will add them to the mix. Clearly hamstring strengthening is one key missing element.

I feel ya. I'm 45 and coming back from an injury that had me on/off for over 6 months and then completely off of running for 2 months. I have not been this unfit in about 20 years. NOT FUN

I've tweaked muscles here and there over the years and have always found that some light strength training really helps. For some hamstring issues I had a few years ago I was doing one leg deadlifts and they helped. See video below (ff to about 45 second so you don't have to watch the guy too much).

Start off next to a wall to help keep balance and only go down as far as the hamstring will allow. Don't push it.

I also have started doing one leg squats to help with my knees. I cannot go down very far at all but it is getting better everyday.

Good Luck and don't give up. Go read some old threads about Ed Whitlock if you are feeling old.

I'm 51 and in the same boat. I just finished my first marathon in 3:44:xx. I have been fighting achilles issues for a couple of years. I did everything except rest it. 3 weeks ago I went out for a 20 miler and it felt like someone stuck a knife in it. I'm going to therapy, no running at all but a fair amount of walking. Doc says most likely surgery on the tendon and remove some bone spurs, 6 months rehab then good as new. I'm afraid that it will be a different definition of new. Will this be the end of my running and a Boston dream, I hope not. Getting old sucks!

the end is here wrote:

Bad news, friend. 57 is the year I got old. Before that I could battle back against the rising tide but at 57 I ended up under water. There's no more getting back in shape, slowing the rate of decline, etc. There's only not making things worse and even that isn't easy.

Yes. I remember Ed Whitlock saying this very thing.

I run the Whirlpool trails wrote:

the end is here wrote:

Bad news, friend. 57 is the year I got old. Before that I could battle back against the rising tide but at 57 I ended up under water. There's no more getting back in shape, slowing the rate of decline, etc. There's only not making things worse and even that isn't easy.

Yes. I remember Ed Whitlock saying this very thing.

I remember thinking at age 54 when I could still train and race pretty much like I always had that I'd be able to do it indefinitely like Ed Whitlock. Then I had a couple of years mostly lost to injury and when I finally get healthy enough so that I could train consistently suddenly I can't. I'm not Ed Whitlock. Almost nobody is. Be prepared to find out you're not either.

I had a tweaked hamstring (probably nothing like what you have) & started doing glut activating drills. I read about them in Jay Dicharry's book Anatomy of a Runner & found them to be really helpful.

1.) single leg bridge-ups (with opposite knee to chest) X 5 on each leg

2.) double leg bridge-ups with marching (really helps to have a partner push down on your hips) X 10

3.) pigeon pose to bridge-up X 5 on each leg

I do these 3 times a week.

Also, I like what other people have been saying about strengthening other muscles too. I really think strengthening the hips is oh-so important. Try these (stolen mainly from Jay Johnson):

1.) lateral leg lifts (3 positions) X 5 each

2.) clams X 15 each leg

3.) fire hydrants X 5 each leg

4.) donkey kicks X 10 each leg

5.) spinal balance (from yoga. Table top position. Right arm forward & left leg back X :30 seconds. Opposite side X :30 seconds).

Hope this helps.

Kudzu,

There are a lot of different philosophies here. I personally don't believe nutrition has anything to do with it neither do I think that hours of stretching/yoga/strengthening will help. This is of course a contrarian view and I will undoubtedly receive considerable flak for my response. I offer you my take nonetheless--

I believe that most of the injuries in running are the result of the unnatural forces placed on the body when heel striking. Perhaps you've always been a heel striker and so this recent string of injuries wouldn't seem to correspond with your form. As you get older however I would presume that your bodies capacity to adapt to the pounding of running has atrophied and this is the reason for your injury problems. If you can change the way you run and run on the balls of your feet rather then your heels then I think you would see a considerable reduction in injuries. I know the counter argument will be "But he's 57! He can't change his form!". Don't listen to the haters old man. Running on the balls of you feet is as easy as it sounds.

I'm 51 & have had hamstring tendinitis/ butt pain for about 5 years. Finally beginning to see the light, 2 months steady without pain. I've been through everything trying to run again; nerve blocks, physical therapapy, MRIs, massage therapy, dry needling, etc. I've been a runner since high school and never had an injury to keep me out long, but the hamstring thing stopped me very suddenly. I live in Memphis, too. Don't give up.

I'm definitely not a heel striker. I'm a midfoot striker. I've spent a of time over the past decade honing my stride, picking up my cadence. Although I have relatively short, heavy legs for my height--the classic soccer players build down below, distance runner up above--I don't lope. My cadence is about 176-178 per minute, with relatively short strides and a very slight forward lean that puts me slightly up on my toes.

Heel strike? Good God no. My stride isn't the problem here.

Thanks to all who have offered a wealth of suggestions. Yes, there's too much to sort through here. I'm slowly coming back on line--four nice miles today and no pain afterward.

I sense that in sharing my angst, I've encouraged others to share their angst, and their ideas about how to cope. Lots of food for thought.

One thing that I should have added here is that I'm a midlife returnee to training and competition. 2:53 marathon and 17:27 5K at 25; then 19 years of noncompetitive occasional jogging. When I came back into racing at age 45, the first 10K I ran was 10 minutes slower than the last I'd run. So I DO understand deconditioning.

After that inauspicious and frustrating return, I lowered my 10K time from 47:10 to 40:40 over the next 7 years. In other words, I got faster every year between 45 and 52. Who, achieving that, wouldn't start to feel exempt from the aging process?

52 to 57 have been challenging years. But every single time an injury has happened, I've dug in my heels, learned what needed to be learned, and eventually ended up back in a solid training and racing groove.

Injuries are, among other things, the body's best way of saying "You haven't paid attention to something that needs your attention."

I've got a bad, arthritic, inflexible big toe on my left foot. Most people, given that toe, would throw in the towel. But when I got carbon fiber insoles, I was able to achieve a pretty good stride and get back on the horse.

I ain't done yet. I've found a great in-town chiro and LMT--both of them worked on me today--and that gives me a lot of hope. I can't say enough about the healers I've been lucky enough to find over the years. Every one has taught me something.

Thanks, folks, for the support.

For what it's worth, I'm 58, and am coming back (I think!) from similar problems.

Was placed in indoor nationals in spring '13, then had hamstring problems that took me out until early '14. Started up again, but after a couple of months had bad knee trouble, which turned out to be a torn meniscus, and pretty much stopped me for another 12 months.

Had knee op on March 30 this year, and ran 19:35 six weeks later, and 19:05 a month after that.

Have done a couple of short-trail races that went Ok since, but nothing on a timed measured course, but training seems to indicate getting back to low 18 shape is close; 60 min fast finish run with the last two miles on the track in 12:01; 5 x 1000m with 2 1/2 min rest at about 18:10 5k pace; 12 x 400m with 1 min recovery at about 17:30 pace; and a comfortable 4 mile tempo on Saturday in 24:50.

I had put on weight, and got 12 lbs off (less beer!), and blood-pressure that had them wanting to put me on meds at around the time of the operation has come right down. It did take quite a while for the stride to come back where I wasn't favoring the knee that had the op, and lots of other bits hurt where I was limping, but gradually worked through them.

Still a long way to go to get back to where I was two years ago, but the recovery from abysmal to decent has been quite fast.

I do have chiro and massage every two weeks, and try and do plenty of stretching, but that's about it.

Anyway it's definitely possible. Good luck!

Nice! It's guys like you that make it easy for me to remain modest, since you could kick my ass sideways if we met in a race.

But I recognize a kindred spirit. I hate being 5 pounds overweight, but only a runner, looking at me, would understand. To non-runners, I'm skinny. But they just don't know. The kindred-spirit part is that once we get back into an injury-free state, we start scheming about how many weeks it will take to start feeling strong, and then good, and then badass.

The injuries always come about a week after I start talking trash to my wife about how badass I feel.

I thought I should update folks on how this all turned out. My last post was late last August.

I ended up not running a step from 9/25/15 to 11/16/15, while I submitted to a PT who insisted that my biomechanics were off and that I needed the interventions he'd learned as a student at the Postural Restoration Institute:

http://www.posturalrestoration.com/

I submitted to his regime. Within the first two weeks, asking me to raise myself in a particular way with my foot on his shoulder, he carelessly helped me retweak my aching hamstring in a very bad way. It was close to malpractice.

I finally quit that. When I weighed myself for the first time in a while on 11/16, I'd gained five pounds, ballooning to 174, eight or nine pounds above racing weight.

I decided to see my ART practitioner in Memphis again. I saw him once a week for 8 weeks. The hamstring improved slightly but did not resolve. As I was seeing him, I began to powerwalk again, and around Christmas that began to morph into painfully slow jogs: 11:15 pace or so.

I've been jogging/running consistently since January 1. 25-35 mpw. In mid-March I hurt my back very badly and lost a couple of weeks, then picked up again. I've averaged 25-35 mpw since April 10. The ham continues slowly to improve. I've slowly pushed my long run out. This morning I ran 10 miles for the first time in a year. The pace wasn't competitive--only 9:32 pace average--but I felt pretty strong and it was a solid run, considering the temps (mid-70s) and headwind on the return leg. My R ham still isn't 100%, which is to say, I barely felt it until I started to push at 7 miles; I could push, but couldn't hammer.

I did some easy fartlek on Friday and 7:30 pace felt like the max I could get away with.

My weight has dropped from 176 (which is what I weighed on Christmas Eve) to about 170.5. So I've whittled that down, but will keep going until I hit 165-166.

I'm not sure what the lesson is here. I guess it's that you need to take things slow, but if you do that, you can work your way back. I felt like a runner this morning, not a jogger. I'll continue slowly to increase my mileage to 40-45 mpw and will push my LR out to 13 or 14......but won't rush that.

I'm embarrassed to say this, but I've done next to nothing in the way of strengthening exercises. But looking at this thread, I can see that I've got some great suggestions from you guys, and I appreciate that.

One other thing has clearly helped put me back on my feet: I've been seeing a great local chiro once a week, every week. First thing Monday morning. He's helped keep me in alignment.

I've also been pretty good about stretching the hams. I think that's made a difference.

That's it for now.

Another update.

The return to fitness continues. Weight has slowly dropped to 169. Long run has been pushed out to 13 miles. Last weekend I did that in the Mississippi summer warmth and humidity in 2:03, around 9:30 pace, without too much strain.

Did three pickups near the end of a recent midweek run: 2:30 at 7:30 pace, then 2 x 60 secs @ 7:00 pace. Hamstring was fine afterwards. It's still at 90% and I don't think I'm ready to race on it, but hey: 44 miles last week. That's solid for me at age 58.

There is hope after full deconditioning. But it takes a while to come back.

wow. kudos.

Since I got back into shape after a couple of ... decades ... of not running, I've generally taken most of the winter off in favor of playing hockey 1 to 2 times per week. By off, I mean I'll have maybe 2, at most 3, easy treadmill runs per week.

Come April, I've lost a ton, A TON, of fitness. Last winter I went from 22:00 5K shape to running 10:00 - 10:30 miles when I did my first 30 mile week in April. I had to push it hard to run 9:15 miles.

Then I spend all summer getting back to 22:00 5K shape. I had goals to break 21:00 this year, but I've spent months just getting back to the shape I was in last October that I don't know if it's possible.

I think I should learn from this and try a bit harder to hold onto some fitness during the upper mid-west (Minnesota) winter.