Lasse Viren interview

Who?

It's genetics. Finns are built to ski, not run.

U.N.O. wrote:

He did improve only 39 seconds from that what he ran at 20 years old. He didn´t need the blood "doping" to do that, if he would have "doped" he would have been much faster.

Right, he didn't need doping to do what he did.

Wrong, that he would have run much faster with doping.

If the cigarette companies had said to not smoke too much because smoking would cause an unfair advantage, causing you to run much faster than others and the only way to run your fastest, then many stupid people would still be smoking and thinking that smoking made them faster; others would hysterically try to ban them from the same mistaken and stupid belief. The drug companies learned from that, and say their drugs help people instead of the harm that they do, which is total BS.

Young Finns are smart. They understand that they won't get to the top without being doped to the eyeballs just like Viren, the other Flying Finns, and the Finnish xc skiers were. And even if they reach an elite level they won't earn much from running. It's much better to spend the time in the sauna with vodka and hot blondes.

As a Finn, who has done some research on the issue of blood doping, Viren and Finns, I'd like to make two notions about Viren (whom I admire a lot):

1) Viren was truly a natural talent...

As written above, Viren managed to became the 5000m Finnish national champion in 1969 at a relatively young age of 20, when he ran less than 2000 miles annually. Even future olympic team doctor Pekka Peltokallio told in an interview for the leading sports magazine in 1969 that Viren would become a world class runner. His coach was really surprised how little he actually ran to achieve these results.

2) ...And based on this fact, Viren didn't need blood doping to run the times he did...

Maybe, maybe not.

It should be emphasized that Viren really ran to win, not to break world records, so we never really know what his limits were in terms of actual endurance. If there is one thing we do know, it is that he was faster than most of the world record breakers.

There are a three instances that could give us a clue about his true limits, which could've been a more far away then what people saw.

His coach told in his memoirs that Viren ran just a week before the 1972 olympics an interval run to increase his sprint capabilities. He ran 50 meters slow followed by 50 meters very fast repetitiously for 5000 metres. The endtime was 13:13, which was even faster than the world record. I have in my possession an unpublished official document from late 1970s were this is occasion is mentioned (by Viren's coach), so apparently there is some truth in it.

The 10000 meter final of the same year is also interesting, when he fell, won and broke the world record. In his memoirs he described the event as extremely easy telling that he was surprised that ”the moment of truth never came” and that he didn't feel any pain associated with lactic acid accumulating.

A word or two should be said about the Montreal marathon. There he finished fifth only less than a day after the very hard 5000 meter final with pretty good time of 2:13. In addition to this, he competed against some sixty runners, of whom every one had concentrated their efforts to that particular event and of whom only a handful had competed at all in that olympiad (no other in the 5k final a just day before). It was also Viren's first marathon, although he had ran a test run of 40 kilometers with the time of roughly 2:40.

I'll conclude with a visual notion. Everyone can see what the "winner" Viren of 1972 and 1976 Viren looks like: cool, calm, emotionless, calculating and almost buddha-like with deadpan face nowhere near his limits. Compare this man with the 1980 Viren of Moscow Olympics, who has this suffering expression in his face and who can not push himself any further.

J.R. wrote:

U.N.O. wrote:

He did improve only 39 seconds from that what he ran at 20 years old. He didn´t need the blood "doping" to do that, if he would have "doped" he would have been much faster.

Right, he didn't need doping to do what he did.

Wrong, that he would have run much faster with doping.

If the cigarette companies had said to not smoke too much because smoking would cause an unfair advantage, causing you to run much faster than others and the only way to run your fastest, then many stupid people would still be smoking and thinking that smoking made them faster; others would hysterically try to ban them from the same mistaken and stupid belief. The drug companies learned from that, and say their drugs help people instead of the harm that they do, which is total BS.

Except of course we know dope works. Your smoking idea id dumb though.

That 50/50 time is not accurate.

Viren was all out in the Montreal 5000. Undoubtedly he could have achieved faster times but he was the WR holder in his time. People rarely make huge leaps ahead of where their peers are.

Certainly he'd be as fast as Rupp or Solinsky if he competed today because that's what it would take.

Other Finnish runners have admitted blood doping and also implicated Viren. It was not illegal at the time but he will never admit it because it would ruin his Olympic legacy. Imagine Mo Farah winning the Olympics easily one year but not being to win Euros the next.

Les wrote:

Other Finnish runners have admitted blood doping and also implicated Viren. It was not illegal at the time but he will never admit it because it would ruin his Olympic legacy. Imagine Mo Farah winning the Olympics easily one year but not being to win Euros the next.

r

Why is that hard to imagine if Farah was coming off of a serious injury incurred after the Olympics?

HRE wrote:

Les wrote:

Other Finnish runners have admitted blood doping and also implicated Viren. It was not illegal at the time but he will never admit it because it would ruin his Olympic legacy. Imagine Mo Farah winning the Olympics easily one year but not being to win Euros the next.

r

Why is that hard to imagine if Farah was coming off of a serious injury incurred after the Olympics?

Because

Les wrote:

Other Finnish runners have admitted blood doping and also implicated Viren. It was not illegal at the time but he will never admit it because it would ruin his Olympic legacy. Imagine Mo Farah winning the Olympics easily one year but not being to win Euros the next.

It should be empasized that thus far only TWO Finnish runners have admitted blood doping publicly and possibly one or two secretly in connection with a Finnish inquest on the doping issue in mid 1980s.

First one (Mikko Ala-Leppilampi) of the admitted blood dopers told that he had the "impression" (not first hand evidence) that Viren and a few others had blood doped and the second (Kaarlo Maaninka) didn't make claims about anyone else. Even the former apologised his fellow-runners for his public outcome in an open letter a few months after the event.

Does this mean that Viren didn't dope? Of course not. Based on circumstantial evidence, there is a strong likelihood that he actually did blood dope. But the accusation can't be taken as given, as there is practically no direct evidence of this happening.

There was no direct evidence of Lance Armstrong doping either, other than statements teammates of his gave. There was no direct evidence Barry Bonds doped, other than information disclosed in the Balco scandal. People have been convicted of murder without the body of the victim ever been found. The point is, people using words like "proof" or "evidence" would not satisfied by anything other than a public confession or a document directly stating that an athlete was doping. There is no direct evidence that an athlete is doping if their biological profile changes radically, yet that is enough to warrant a suspension. Heavy circumstantial evidence is enough, in other words, to prove guilt. It's very unlikely that only minor Finnish athletes doped whereas star athletes like Viren did not. Viren could do a lot for the sport by simply admitting he blood doped. He would not lose his medals and it would wake the public up. He will not do that because he's basically selfish. At this point he's gained everything he possibly could from his Olympic victories -- there's nothing more for him to gain by keeping silent. Yes, he would lose some prestige, but it would help the sport which gave him so much. In any case, I imagine the Finnish public would be very supportive of him even if he admitted blood doping.

Paula, on the other hand, if she came out and admitted doping that would be a big scandal.

"Viren could do a lot for the sport by simply admitting he blood doped .He would not lose his medals and it would wake the public up. He will not do that because he's basically selfish."

Or because maybe he didn't.

His coach told in his memoirs that Viren ran just a week before the 1972 olympics an interval run to increase his sprint capabilities. He ran 50 meters slow followed by 50 meters very fast repetitiously for 5000 metres. The endtime was 13:13, which was even faster than the world record. I have in my possession an unpublished official document from late 1970s were this is occasion is mentioned (by Viren's coach), so apparently there is some truth in it.

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Need more info on this. I heard this too, but its always the same source - the coach. Need independent verification for me to believe it.

Dunkenfeld wrote:

His coach told in his memoirs that Viren ran just a week before the 1972 olympics an interval run to increase his sprint capabilities. He ran 50 meters slow followed by 50 meters very fast repetitiously for 5000 metres. The endtime was 13:13, which was even faster than the world record. I have in my possession an unpublished official document from late 1970s were this is occasion is mentioned (by Viren's coach), so apparently there is some truth in it.

.

Need more info on this. I heard this too, but its always the same source - the coach. Need independent verification for me to believe it.

Viren's log showed otherwise. The time was closer to 13:36.

[quote]HRE wrote:

"Viren could do a lot for the sport by simply admitting he blood doped .He would not lose his medals and it would wake the public up. He will not do that because he's basically selfish."

Do a lot for the sport ? or for you.

He says he did not blood dope, then he did not blood dope. I will take his word over yours.How many times the guy gotta say it..No matter how many times or ways, morons like you will cling to your idiotic belief.

Selfish WTF?

His coach has denied it, his doctor has denied. A little history lesson this was conjured up by reporter Sander Vanocur who was irresponsible in his reporting and later proved so during the Montreal OG based on a "rumor" ( he admitted to fabrication) and a research article published about the possible beneficial affects (study out of Karolinska Institute). ABC pulled him off the story, journalism used to mean something back then and you were not allowed to make things up.

For me it would make no difference since I already stated I believe he blood doped. But I believe it would do the sport good for people to admit what they did. Lance Armstrong also denied he used PEDs -- up until the moment he admitted he did. Obviously personal denials mean nothing. Everyone who has tested positive has either denied knowingly taking a PED or come up with crazy excuses like "spiked toothpaste" (Dieter Baumann) or "multiple sex and alcohol" (Dennis Mitchell) or birth control (Mary Slaney). The only guy who has (somewhat) admitted doping is Tyson Gay, who has still not provided any details on how the PED got into his system. I admire him for at least going that far, which is much more than Gatlin ever did. I could give Viren the benefit of the doubt even with his performances dropping noticeably in non-Olympic years. No, I do not believe "serious injuries" caused his fall-off in 1973, 1974, 1975, 1977, 1978 and 1979. Remember this was a guy who easily, in 3 out of 4 Olympic races, defeated the best in the world, even easier than Farah has. The rest of the time he ran like runner he probably was, talented, hard-working, but not head and shoulders better than everyone else in the world. The thing that makes me (and others) think that Viren doped is that he comes from a country with a history of verified doping busts -- runners and cross country skiers. To me it makes no sense for a lesser runner to have blood doped while the multiple medal winner has not. For a guy to produce superhuman performances makes me think he was on something. If he consistently ran at the level he did in the Olympics I would be more inclined to think he was clean, but he never did, not once. Blood doping is a potentially dangerous procedure. It has to be done with a doctor's supervision. With his emphasis on the Olympics blood doping all the time wouldn't be worth the risk - what would be the reward for it?

Time wise he doesn't actually drop off as much as people seem to assume. His edge seemed to maybe not quite be there but he far from dropped off the face of the earth between Games

Aragon wrote:

As written above, Viren managed to became the 5000m Finnish national champion in 1969 at a relatively young age of 20, when he ran less than 2000 miles annually.

2000km= 1242mi 1306.589yd