Who wins if all the best US milers from the last 50 years could race each other in their prime?

Ryun! In his 1966/67 prime he could win any kind of race; sit and kick or run WR pace. All the others have weaknesses somewhere. Scott would be very close in a fast paced effort but I can't see him beating an in form Ryun in a race where they pass 1200 in something close to three minutes or slower. Webb? Surely not! Apart from some fast runs did he ever show the ability to win against the world's best?

What about Marty Liquori? If there had been an Olympics in, say 1970 or 1971 he would have been a serious contender for gold. Seriously under estimated and unappreciated runner by you Americans. Strange!

mark b wrote:

Ryun! In his 1966/67 prime he could win any kind of race; sit and kick or run WR pace. All the others have weaknesses somewhere. Scott would be very close in a fast paced effort but I can't see him beating an in form Ryun in a race where they pass 1200 in something close to three minutes or slower. Webb? Surely not! Apart from some fast runs did he ever show the ability to win against the world's best?

What about Marty Liquori? If there had been an Olympics in, say 1970 or 1971 he would have been a serious contender for gold. Seriously under estimated and unappreciated runner by you Americans. Strange!

Bernard. Lagat.

ventolin^3 wrote:

Deanouk wrote:Nonsense.

Go fetch my quote that Maree ran 2:34!

I never said that. I don't delete my comments, so it shouldn't be difficult for you to give my quote. Put up or shut up.

utter drivel

5 or 6y years ago, well before maree vid was out, i said he went thru in 2'33+ & you under one of your numerous handles said 2'34+

you talked nonsense, clearly showing you never saw race live on tv but was making crap up as maree's vid shows as your neurone coudn't comprehend a guy coud go thru in 2'33+ & hold on for 3'29.7

you lied :

you never saw maree's 3'29.7 live on tv

v3 has a SEVERE credibility problem.

Deanouk has none.

I'm as big a Jim Ryun fan as there is, but the truth is that there similarly were not any championship races in '66/'67 to see how he would do in them. If pure talent were everything, I'd put him first, but it takes more.

Steve Scott was very talented but did not have a good record in big meets, or against Coe/Ovett/Cram.

I also love Marty Liquori, but he had his shot against Bayi and just got outrun. In an indoor race I'd put him above anyone but Couglan.

Centro is not quite the man yet, but his USATF 1500m went a long way to impressing me. Let's see what happens at the WC.

In a tactical race, Lagat, but in an all-out record attempt I might still pick Ryun, slower PRs notwithstanding (to be fair, his PRs came from the 1960's ad we're STILL talking about him -- he was that good).

Ryun was afraid of the mile, especially the first lap. His career is full of races where his fear of the first lap was his undoing, Olympic races in particular.

What's the fastest first lap Ryun has ever run in a mile/1500m?

Ventolin won't answer this question because it proves that Ryun really was afraid to attack the full distance.

Ah, but he is.

Stop looking in the rear view mirror folks and see what is plainly apparent.

Centro is THE MAN.

Joe Falcon

Prefontaine would out kick anyone in the race

Poster has a point in that Ryun never attacked a mile/1500m from the gun.

Ventolin should "go fetch" Ryun's fastest first lap to prove that Ryun was not a first lap snoozer.

utter drivel

"But it wasn’t the Mile WR that he broke first. Running an 880 in the UST&F Championships, he surprisingly broke Snell’s WR of 1:45.1 with 1:44.9. This was achieved after a 1:51 heat two hours earlier. After a 53.3 first lap, he took off on the back straight, running the last 220 in 25.5.

Then in Berkeley he attacked Michel Jazy’s Mile WR of 3:53.6. After being taken through in 57.9 and 1:55.5, Ryun had to go it alone on the back straight of lap 3 after he felt the pace slowing: “I…lengthened my stride, trying to hold a steady pace.” (Gold, p.49). He reached the bell in 2:55.3 and needed a 58.3 last lap to break the record. But the fast pace was hurting: “I was gradually tying up.” (Gold, p.49)

He passed 1,500 in 3:36.1 (2nd fastest ever) and looked really good over the last 120, covering the last lap in 56.0 for a 3:51.3. He was 6.7 seconds ahead of the next runner, Cary Weisiger. “I didn’t know it was a WR until they announced it over the loudspeaker. I was surprised,” Ryun recalled later (Milers, p.320)"

he was a kid at 19y & this was about only race in his better years, '67 being quantum leap better, that he coud actually get someone to pace him

that pacer coud only get him thru in 57.9, probably about 56.9 on '70's synthetic & he had to run at least last 600 solo & it looked like pretty damn hot in berkeley

he was probably on a '70's synthetic on this day, on temperate day with ideal pacing to bell :

~ 1'41-mid / 3'27-low

he was a quantum leap better in '67, running on a poor track, solo, jogging to bell & a 53+ finish & there is always Dusseldorf !!!

he also ran 2'46.6 for last 1200 in 3'33.1WR with some wide bend running & in 95F heat !!!

also worth noting that a 25.5 finish in a fast 800 is last 200/220y split expected in a 1'39 !!!

57.9 on dirt, probably worth 56.9 on a '70's synthetic, but that is all the pacers coud offer him

no 56+ offering on dirt for him, worth 55+ on '70s synthetic

utter drivel

he wouda hoped for more like 56+ that day from pacer without doubt

you rubbed the lamp, you got a "fetch"

see above

it was 57.9 on dirt in 3'51.3 as raw kid of barely 19y

it was the best that the poor quality pacers coud offer

rules then required pacers to finish race to validate time !!!

who the fuuck pacer(s) is/are going to commit suicide by going thru in 56+/1'52+/2'48+ & forced to crawl on hands'n'knees in the last 1 or 2 laps when needing a helicopter with paramedics working constant CPR on them en-route to nearest cardiac unit to even have chance of survival ???

i have no doubt he wouda liked more like 56+ on dirt & paced evenly to bell in 2'48+ on dirt, but no one alive apart from Keino or bodo/norpoth coud do that & they weren't going to do it for him !!!

i suggest you don't ask this drivel again

Full Miler wrote:

Ryun was afraid of the mile, especially the first lap. His career is full of races where his fear of the first lap was his undoing, Olympic races in particular.

What's the fastest first lap Ryun has ever run in a mile/1500m?

Ventolin won't answer this question because it proves that Ryun really was afraid to attack the full distance.

"I think in those days, we really had a minute-a-lap fixation," admits Halberg. "It was a matter of running minute laps and then running as fast as you could over the last - that was how much you beat four minutes by."

So you did your research and came up with an 800m which he also was afraid to attack from the gun and ONE mile when he ran the first lap in 58. You're research proved my point.

I was a 3:59 miler and went through 400m regularly in 58. These are common first lap times for hacks like me. My fastest first lap ever was a 56. It's telling that Ryun, a 3:51 miler and a million times more talented than me, never ran a fast first lap and it's his glaring weakness.

Clearly, he was a first lap snoozer and afraid of the full distance he was racing. His reluctance to attack from the gun ruined his Olympic ambitions and clearly several American milers would bury him early in a hypothetical race.

in '67, he was a quantum leap better than any 800 or 1500 guy who drew breathe

no

guys like hicham/bernie/noah had no weaknesses in slow or fast races

it is just that Ryun was quantum leap better than these lower-level guys

they probably couda gone

~ 1'41-low/mid for bernie/noah, 1'41-high/1'42-flat for hicham, 3'25-low for hicham, 3'25-mid/high for noah/bernie

they had no weaknesses

just that Ryun was quantum leap better than them

it's like saying a 1'43/3'30 guy has no weaknesses

it can be very true, but we are then talking specimen with similarly, no weaknesses, but quantum+++ level better in every atom of his homunculus

no

scott was probably good for ~ 3'46-flat in '83 dream-mile, but there is nowhere in all the infinite multiverses he wouda hung with Ryun on last lap in '67 shape

probably good for ~ 1'43-low / 3'45-high at peak

not mentionable in same multiverses as Ryun

if the guy believes he couda carried Ryun's jockstrap in Ryun's '67 shape, he better have got hold of a JCB to attempt it !!!

Hold-on, Folks.

Centro is automatically out of the convo, unless he's able to still use his private doctor.

Miler/1500m wrote:

So you did your research and came up with an 800m which he also was afraid to attack from the gun and ONE mile when he ran the first lap in 58. You're research proved my point.

I was a 3:59 miler and went through 400m regularly in 58. These are common first lap times for hacks like me. My fastest first lap ever was a 56. It's telling that Ryun, a 3:51 miler and a million times more talented than me, never ran a fast first lap and it's his glaring weakness.

Clearly, he was a first lap snoozer and afraid of the full distance he was racing. His reluctance to attack from the gun ruined his Olympic ambitions and clearly several American milers would bury him early in a hypothetical race.

See my above quote.

eh ???

how inept are you ???

what part of

"~ one time in his career he coud get someone to pace him in peak years of '66/'67 with draconian pacer rules, all he coud get was 57.9, worth ~ 56.9 on '70s track, when 56+ on dirt wouda been more suited"

your neurone not comprehend ???

as for the 800, how totally inept are you ???

he was so ill that day that he shoudn't even have even been running that final after that prelim coupla hours before :

he was in no condition to run that race, let alone bust WR !!!

utter drivel

good on ya

better still even if on dirt

1.015++

better

"good on ya's"

i suggest you shouda got into better paced races

great run if on dirt & you had any < 4 off it

utter drivel

57.9 on dirt is damn quick lap, worth at worst 56.9 on '70s synthetic

what part of previous posts your neurone can't comprehend ???

the pacer(s) were required to finish the race & couda died if they tried to pace him thru 1'52+/ 2'48+ & needed to finish to validate WR

utter drivel

where the fuuck is the paced 1500/mile in 56+ opener in mid-'60s ???

go fetch it !!!

utter drivel

the physiologists told him 3'39 was best possible at mexico, so to run race at even pace 58+ laps, as 3'39 was best for his hugely mono-afflicted form in '68 when as outstandingly best 800 runner in world, as WR holder, he coudn't even make top-3 in trials !!!

jack daniels was one of the physiologits, possibly main one

i believe he posts here still, if still alive

go ask him & stop talking utter drivel

57.9 is 58. Let's be realistic. It's a split time on a hand held stopwatch. The miler is right. 58 is not a fast opener for a 3:51 miler.

Is that seriously the fastest first lap you found for Ryun?

Hell, I've run a 59 first lap, and my best is a 3:57 1500m.

You guys are trying to argue with a guy that:

1) Was aggressively wrong about Iguider's 1500m being legit as opposed to short

2) Was aggressively wrong about the 2012 Olympic 10000m tactics/time

3) Was wrong about Kiprop's 800m performances early this season

and a thousand other similar examples.

It's like trying to explain love to a desk.