Mary Wittenberg Steps Down as President of New York Road Runners to Head Virgin Sport

dead cat wrote:

So what is Virgin Sport?

Old Man Runner wrote:

Runners in high school.

road rashed wrote:

2 points Old Man Runner. Well done!

Thank you, thank you. Because this board is so awesome, I'll be here all day.

MarathonMind wrote:

I think this is only one side of the story. NYRR made a strategic move away from being a local runners club to being a national brand. It did leave the NYC-local runners without a home and that is an unfortunate by-product.

extremely unfortunate, which led to the rise of NYC Runs, and the more reasonable entry fees NYRRC used to be known for.

I really like The NYCRuns Wednesday night summer races in Riverside Park and Prospect Park - cheap, well-organized low key events. The rest of NYCRuns events, however, are more expensive than typical weekly NYRR races, so I find it a bit misleading to refer to NYCRuns as having more reasonable entry fees.

So 2 people took great advantage to further their career and ego. Recruiting elites to run NYCM or NYRR races has no bearings on the rest of the club members. 99.9% of them don't care who won or who even showed up. The race experience has been significantly downgraded since the arrival of Mary W.

I agree. I think most experienced NYRR members were not happy with her leadership, especially her obsession with growth, which ruined the marathon and much of the local running scene.

She was completely out of touch with her members.

I stopped renewing my membership years ago. The only NYRR race I still run is The Fifth Avenue Mile. The rest are too much of a schlep. NYCRuns rocks!

I can tell you from socializing with NYRR employees that they have very little respect for her and morale is at an all time low.

She's lucky to have been surrounded by a great team who've put a lot of effort in to compensating for her lack of competence.

Hopefully Virgin Sport will continue to allow her to fly her family around the world in First-Class on expenses (that rumor came from a NYRR inside, I can't vouch for it).

The good: added a professionalism that Fred and Steinfeld never had, elevated the quality of the professional fields in many races (not just the NYCM), created the NYC HM from scratch and, her pet peeve, increased spending on "youth" programs (that only applies to the youth).

The bad: dues paying members kicked to the curb and forced to foot the bill for more expensive professional runners and expansive youth programs via much more expensive race fees, the elimination of many great races (Powerbar, Trevira Twosome, 4.01K, Museum 5K, Tropicana, Dash and Splash, Backwards Mile, etc) and the worsening of surviving races (no gatorade, no food, plastic prizes usually with no cash, t-shirts best used as rags, overcrowding, sold out months in advance, etc).

The ugly: Sandy. Yes, Bloomberg threw her under the bus but her handling of it was embarrassingly poor and created a lot of people who forever will hate her.

Part of the problem is that NYRR has paid off the Parks Conservancy so NYRR basically has a monopoly on races in Central Park. Other race companies should be allowed to hold races there.

much of this is untrue

1) cost of regular weekly races is low compared to races outside of the city, and lower than NYCRuns events. But yeah, you have to get in early, otherwise the cost is....the same as NYCRuns events.

2) Who cares about some of those races? really. I mean so the heck what? And how are surviving races worse? They're races. Really well organized 5000 person races.

3) There is cash awards for many races, even for masters. Was there ever cash for age groups? I don't remember that.

4) I'll agree that the tshirts are genuinely awful and unwearable - except for the 5th ave mile. Massive waste.

5) There are other races in Central Park - you just don't hear about them. Usually they get 500 people. Not a lot of races, but they're there if you are really interested.

agip wrote:

well that's interesting.

I'm a fan of MW - the 2012 marathon was a disaster that should not define her term. The NY running scene is a better place from her leadership. Not massively, but to some degree.

Between this and the huge windfall the NYRR is going to get from selling their building, there could be some big changes over there. Should be interesting.

I don't get this Virgin Sport thing at all - I've read the press release twice and can't quite picture what it is.

Whatever it is, Branson and co., have made a brilliant choice.

(1) That is completely untrue. The typical "weekly" race costs $33 or $37 for non-members. You also conveniently carved out non "weekly" races, which are much more expensive with the marathon being exhibit A. Also, if you do a race outside of the city, you get a lot more than just a chip, t-shirt and cup of water poured from a fire hydrant. There usually is food, sports drinks, nicer awards, nicer t-shirts and actual cash prizes.

(2) Well, a lot of the current (and now former) members actually do/did care. You must work at NYRR if you think that the only race worth putting on is a vanilla 4 or 5 miler in Central Park because they are easier for NYRR to put on. No 5Ks and almost no 10Ks. The Powerbar relay races were great for people training for Boston and fun. Yes, the surviving races are "races" as you profoundly pointed out but they also only are 4 or 5 milers with the absolute minimum spent on them. Is it really that hard to provide Gatorade at the finish line? It used to be there.

(3) Most races do NOT have prize money. How many races outside of the city with 5,000+ people and a paying sponsor that have 6 figures of revenue coming in give out NO prize money? None. Not even a gift certificate. You can't be serious if you think that that is acceptable.

(4) I don't think the t-shirt issue is that big of a deal but it's just another example of how NYRR has decided to screw its regular members to cut costs in order to have more money to spend elsewhere.

(5) Yes, there are some random 5Ks on the lower loop in the summer that are run with no road closures but get real those are not races most people want to do. It's without question that NYRR has bought off the Parks Conservancy so it has a de facto monopoly on races in the Park. Everyone other than NYRR would be much better off if other race companies were allowed to come into Central Park and put on races. My strong hunch is that Gatorade would make a return to the Park.

Peter Ciacia organizes the races, Mary's job was to deafen us at the start.

I will give her credit for not instituting the National Anthem at the start of most races.

You can find NYCRUNS races for as little as $10.

1. $33-$37 for non members is pretty much what a race costs in NJ or CT or LI. More like $40 to be honest. And no, you don't get anything with that. Sometimes you dont' even get a tshirt.

But you are ignoring the $18 cost for members. membership costs $40 for most, and $25 for jrs/srs. You do 6 races, that's $18 fee plus $7 per race for membership = $25. I call that a bargain for a big, competitive race.

NYRR food is well a bagel and water. Could be better I suppose but for $25 I'm happy with that.

2. I've been running in NYC for 25 yrs and I don't miss any particular extinct races. and I do like the newer ones. Personal opinion tho.

3. . Prize money - maybe you aren't aware that 18 NYRR races have prize money. That seems pretty good to me.

5. other races - i'm not sure how many non nyrr events there are. I did a nice 10k that Central Park TC put on. I know NYC Runs has had events in CP. I've come across other fund raiser runs with timing chips and mats and whatnot. I'm not saying there are many events - but your conspiracy theorizing is weird. Fact is, Central Park is a very controlled space and it is VERY hard to get a license to do anything in there. Doesn't imply 'payoffs'

and another thing - I live on the upper west side so I have to pay tolls to get to NJ if i want to race there.

I added up the price of a race I did once in NJ - it was something like $80. $35 entry fee, $15 in tolls and $20 for lunch, $10 for gas.

$25 for a NYRR event in CP sounds pretty good to me.

I would take some po-dunk, down home, authentically friendly, cheap-ass race organized by rednecks, heshers and DIII has-beens any day over the pre-packed, rape-your-wallet, narcissism-thons organized by NYRR.

sold out sport and culture wrote:

I would take some po-dunk, down home, authentically friendly, cheap-ass race organized by rednecks, heshers and DIII has-beens any day over the pre-packed, rape-your-wallet, narcissism-thons organized by NYRR.

right, and if you break 19 for 5k you are running all by yourself the whole way.

Awesome.

And it is beyond insulting that the "prize money" being so generously offered by the NYRR for this weekend's Brooklyn Half is a $1000 for first place. This will no doubt go to an East African who is sharing a Bronx apartment with 10 others and living off of 3-day old injera. $1000 doesn't get you crap in the corn-hole town.

(1) What are you talking about that you don't "get anything with that"? It might benefit you to leave the city for a race and see what a good race is. Try Shelter Island next month and report back to us how similar the experience was to the typical vanilla NYRR 5-miler in Central Park. Most little dinky races in the suburbs offer A LOT more than a NYRR races whether it be a t-shirt, gatorade, oranges, free massages, etc.

(2) We already know that you like generic 4-milers and don't care that other races no longer exist. There actually are other people out there who think otherwise.

(3) I am aware of the 18 races with prize money. Maybe you aren't aware that that is less than half of the races, Considering that almost all (maybe even all) have over $100,000 of revenue coming in, that's beyond ridiculous. Why doesn't every race have prize money? So many little podunk 5Ks have $100 for first place and definitely do not have $100,000 of revenue to pay for it.

(5) Conspiracy theory? It's not hard to get a permit to put on races in Central Park. NYRR has all of them on the weekends not in the winter. Do you think that that is random or that some money was used for that? Do you think other groups, say, the Competitor Group, might want to put on a race in CP but can't because NYRR has all of the permits? It's beyond ridiculous that you think it's the best situation to have EVERY other group prohibited from putting on races in CP on the weekend when it is nice out.

sold out sport and culture wrote:

And it is beyond insulting that the "prize money" being so generously offered by the NYRR for this weekend's Brooklyn Half is a $1000 for first place. This will no doubt go to an East African who is sharing a Bronx apartment with 10 others and living off of 3-day old injera. $1000 doesn't get you crap in the corn-hole town.

How much should it be and where should the increased amount come from?

getting a little tired here.

yes, the shelter island 10k is a better event than a generic 5 miler in CP. Is that really an argument you need to make? You know what? The Boston marathon is better than Coogan's. Falmouth is better than Grete's. You are dead freaking right.

But

the dinky race in the suburbs we are comparing the generic NYRR 5 miler to has 500 people, the winner runs 5:50 minute pace maybe and the 10th place guy runs 7 minute miles. You get a similarly crappy t shirt. I don't see the appeal. It would take a lot of great food to make up for basically a time trial.

And your assertion that MOST dinky races offer more than NYRR races? that's absurd. It is hard to find actual competition in the burbs.

And I don't think prize money at 500 person suburban races is really a thing. Sure you can find it here and there, but rare. I haven't seen it anyway.

re; the parks department, your first quote was "Part of the problem is that NYRR has paid off the Parks Conservancy" which implies unethical behavior. Now you are backing off that and saying something else.

Is this the best situation? probably not, but it's pretty good.

alapaha wrote:

and another thing - I live on the upper west side so I have to pay tolls to get to NJ if i want to race there.

I added up the price of a race I did once in NJ - it was something like $80. $35 entry fee, $15 in tolls and $20 for lunch, $10 for gas.

$25 for a NYRR event in CP sounds pretty good to me.

I lived on the UWS for 15 years but I HAVE FRIENDS I can share the travel costs with and have a fun day with at the same time.

If I am racing alone I'll usually take the train.

CP was fun for a while but tripping over people's feet for the first half mile is more than I can take.

Golly gee, I don't know. Maybe Mary Wittenberg's $500,843 salary?

We should all be ashamed.