Very useful input here, KEG250.
With regard to Week 4, do you mean that something like a half marathon race is possible the week before the "goal" marathon race? I ask because my marathon is in November, but, the week before the marathon, there is a half marathon that I would truly like to run again.
With regard to the 20+ runs, I could not agree more. Going into a marathon, it just seems so useful and appropriate.
At 44 years old, I ran 2:41 PR after 2:47 PR at Chicago 18 months earlier. For approximately the 4 months before my 2:41 PR, I averaged 68 mpw, compared to ~75 mpw before CHI. I basically did the same training for both, which was focused on twice monthly long, flat, but very hard runs -- 22-24 miles with 16-18 at what turned out to be MP + 5 seconds. The difference for me was adding very hilly long runs the alternating weeks, rather than easy-ish flat long runs, as well as weekly 1/4 mile repeats on a 4.5% hill. I also ran 6-8 mile "tempos" or cruise intervals at HMP + 8-10 seconds, which was basically as hard as I could go after the long runs and hills. I tried to run the tempos weekly, but found that I could only manage twice monthly or so. I didn't do any intervals faster than HMP for 6+ months before my 2:41. Based on my experience, I recommend OP maximize his (very) limited miles by doing lots of hills and long, hard runs.
Great story, Hill Master. I could not agree more. I live in a hilly area, and am constantly subject to them if I want to run anything more than a mile or two, unless I go to the track.
Had I not gotten injured, I would have topped out at 70 mpw, and so I can see you being right where you should be at 68-75. Also, your strategy of no intervals faster than HMP makes sense. I am no expert, but I have learned that the marathoner (and even half marathoner) must simply get comfortable at what he/she will be doing in the actual race. With your 16-18 at MP + 5 sounds perfect--you were getting accustomed to the grind of the marathon. Before my injury, I was doing hilly 15-milers at 6:45 pace, with my target being 6:51-6:52 for the marathon race itself. Hence, I was right on scehdule (even a little ahead)...and then lost it all in an instant.
Run and race more. There is no short cut.
Designing workouts will not do the trick. You need to spend time below goal pace. Hence the advice to race.
Speaker of Hard Truths wrote:
If you choose not to then forget running a fast marathon. But at 43 the time to see how fast you can go is NOW or NEVER. If you choose NEVER then so be it, just don't pretend like you don't have time.
I have to disagree based on Ed W's WR at 73, it may be possible to do 2:40s into your later 50s. Surely a 50 year old can pull off 2:45. Of course, waiting longer will require a lot more work, right? But never say never!
KEG250 wrote:
I am a 40+ master that was in your very situation, with a tad more mileage. I will tell you that what helped me more then anything is frowned upon by most coaches, but I have a very "sturdy" frame and a very economical running gait.
I did all the traditional workouts and got down to low 250's. I then started focusing on my Sunday morning runs.
Bottom line is I ran a 20+ run every single weekend for 12 weeks prior to taper.
The basic framework was as follows:
Week 1 20 easy progression, always negative split but starting out very easy
Week 2 20 easy 10, tempo 10
Week 3 23 long run
Week 4 20 easy or shorter (up to 20K) race
YMMV and it probably will, but that is what got me to the 245 mark and no DNF's or big positive splits in 10+ races.
That's a simple and good plan. Although, hard work and loads of determination to accomplish. Good work! Continous training is key. I had problems for years, catching colds and sinusitis all the time, destroying training for weeks. Until I figured it out. I was training hard on the limit for a long period of time. When I rebooted, I worked gradually and finally I went through 18wks program, building me up for the race without any flaws in training. That took 4min of my time and landed me at 2.48. That really is the key, continous training. I do agree that changing up the long runs gives a lot. Just jogging around 20mi at 8-speed on the sunday over and over is a total waste of time.
Haddite wrote:
Outside, yes the course is on the roads. When we are in purely AeT mode, we try to ease up on the uphills so as to not spike our HR's too much. A little bit is OK. We're truly set on keeping those paces in the less-than 90% of maxHR range.
Actually this training is better for FT runners, not ST.
***Side note***
Any type of runner can come from some type of background and really benefit from a phase of AeT work. Especially if they come from a college, US-type hard interval history. Although I query new runners with a questionnaire, the proof is in the work and the data I can get from them when we begin working together.
*****************
My goal with our group was to put both types (FT and ST) through the AeT phase to make sure we have moved our 2.0 levels as far as we could before our race. Our 39-year-old guy was clearly ahead of us aerobically (he is a purely slow twitch guy). His HR's were always in check (for him) while doing the AeT work and he seemed quite at ease with the work. (of course, he's 39 too!). But he did not beat one of the 51-year-olds at the half marathon!
Hadd was very clear on a concept that he proved to our Hadd-coached runners over and over again. And this is it:
"If you are a truly slow twitched (ST) runner, train to be the best 800 meter runner you can - ALL THE TIME!!!!"
ST folks just can't get access to the correct fuel source as readily as an FT runner and must constantly work on their Anaerobic system to keep it as active as possible.
Think about this little test: (I am a super FT guy), if I took one year off of running but stayed healthy, after the year I could probably go to a track and run a 30 second (or faster) 200 meters, no problem. Ask me to run a 10k or a half and I would think you were nuts. Ask a truly ST runner to run a 200 and you get an ultra runner...but then ask them to run a half and they would probably do OK.
So...what we lose is our weakness and that is precisely what we should be working on.
When we move from AeT to LT we start slowly introducing slightly longer intervals. With LT work you want to work on paces right at or slightly slower than LT and paces slightly faster than LT.
This might be 5 x 1 mile with 200 meter jog rest (we do this at 6:06-08 pace)
(slightly faster)
5 x 2000 at 6:10-12 pace (slightly slower) w/ 400 jog rest.
We do a lot of 2 and 3 mile repeats and slowly lengthen our tempos, not speed up.
At this point we generally add in, what I would call V02 max work where we begin shortening the intervals as we progress. We do 4 x1600's, 5x1200's, 6 x 1000, etc.
When we get to the V02 max phase like above, it's time for the FT guys and the ST guys to separate and use different rest intervals so we get a slightly different effect from the workout. Our FT guys keep the rests shorter to keep the work more aerobic and the ST guys take longer rests to allow them to work a little harder on each interval.
Sorry this was a lot of info but I hope it answers some questions (and produce a few more...)
Good stuff! Thanx for all the info. Great and thaught through plan.
outsiderunner wrote:
Great discussion, Haddite--thanks!
My reaction to fast running (that nasty feeling in the chest) tells me I am more of a ST guy. I can do a lot of HM pace work (almost merrily), and, I imagine, can do MP all day (when healthy).
That's funny how different it can be. I suffer when doing HM speed, but am very comfortable at marathon speed and the difference is just +15s between them. But woking on it!
Hill Master wrote:
At 44 years old, I ran 2:41 PR after 2:47 PR at Chicago 18 months earlier. For approximately the 4 months before my 2:41 PR, I averaged 68 mpw, compared to ~75 mpw before CHI. I basically did the same training for both, which was focused on twice monthly long, flat, but very hard runs -- 22-24 miles with 16-18 at what turned out to be MP + 5 seconds. The difference for me was adding very hilly long runs the alternating weeks, rather than easy-ish flat long runs, as well as weekly 1/4 mile repeats on a 4.5% hill. I also ran 6-8 mile "tempos" or cruise intervals at HMP + 8-10 seconds, which was basically as hard as I could go after the long runs and hills. I tried to run the tempos weekly, but found that I could only manage twice monthly or so. I didn't do any intervals faster than HMP for 6+ months before my 2:41. Based on my experience, I recommend OP maximize his (very) limited miles by doing lots of hills and long, hard runs.
Congrats to that! That is a great achievement. Wow. Smart move with the long runs. I was thinking of doing that in my next marathon cycle towards Boston 2016. Mimicing the course with some nasty hills in the last 10k of "normal" long runs. Let's see what that can give me. As for the milage, I will continue doing 50-55mi/wk for a while and during autumn, I will gradually increase it to be 55-60 normal and maxing at 65-70 during the marathon cycle. Just volume, added to easy days etc.
CNW in Seattle has a huge contingent of Master's runners that are constantly being constant. I usually can keep up with the Top Master's but when I am out of shape (after track break, all winter etc.) they give me a beating.
The biggest thing the coach there emphasizes is...progression. The workouts are mainly geared for marathons (anywhere from 5k to marathon really) including tempo runs. The biggest thing is staying healthy.
If there is a "signature" to my running, it would be progression. I should have mentioned this sooner. My body just tends toward progression, both on the track and the roads. I do not like going out fast, and I feel very comfortable progessing downward for a good number of miles. Also, I find the "summoning" of conventional intervals to be quite terrifying: oh no, here comes another 6:00-pace set of laps. This, though, is excellet training.
I could not agree more about staying healthy. Any running is better than no running. That is the key above all else.
what do you do between 5 - 6 am?
no one wrote:
what do you do between 5 - 6 am?
Depends on the time zone I'm in...
Hi!
Some background on my training this year. After suffering from bad sinusitis and a stupid accident, I started from zero after 2 months of no running or training at all. Add to that 2wks of vacation in Costa Rica with loads of beer and food. It was hard to get into the running again and the first week my legs felt like concrete! Anyway, I manage to get through the first weeks and now I'm working towards a marathon 30th may in order to BQ 2016. I need to do 3.15, but I'm traning to be in 2.55 shape in order to be able to still qualify even if the weather is hot come race day. My training consists of 3wk cycles of LT-MP-E weeks, where I go 20mi+ long run on E week. As I progress, the MP week will also move closer to +20mi, but with progressively more MP.
The training so far:
32mi - all E
46mi - all E, +10x20" and 17mi long run
49mi - all E, +10x20" and 19mi long run
50mi -LT wk, Q1: 2x2mi(T)/2'+3x1000(10k). Q2: 2x1mi/1'+2mi/2'+1mi (all LT)
52mi -MP wk, Q1: 4mi+3mi/1k jog rest (MP). Q2: 8mi(MP)
51mi -E wk, 2x10x20" 20mi long run
52mi -LT wk. Same as last LT wk. adjusted speed. 5'47 (10k), 6:14 (LT)
So next week is MP week again. Getting into the groove now and running comes more natural than the first weeks :) Happy to be pounding 50mi weeks and really feel that I'm builing myself up. Fortunately for me, I'm a quick responder and I respond fast to stimulus. That got me back on track quite fast. I'm really annoyed that I was in the shape of my life last year at 2:48 and instead of building on that, I was time warped back into the shape I was in 3yrs ago. Bummer. I'm determined to get back to the level I was and to improve! Time will tell.
I see nothing wrong with your training. Do not ever be embarrassed by "mere" 50-mile weeks. It is more than what 99.9% of the world is doing. Be thankful and enjoy it, and realize that those "mere" 50-mile weeks got you pretty far. Sure, 60-70-mile weeks would be great, but be thankful that you are out and running. Smile, even if it is just for me :-)
As far a being bummed by regressing is concerned, I can say I know the feeling. I am at nearly three full months now from that horrible day (Jan. 7...injury day), and still felt soreness this morning in my ten-miler. Both my coach and I think I should be pain-free by now, but that just is not the case. I am very happy to have gone ten, though...7:29 pace, overall (and a 6:54 last mile). It was a good resurrection run...felt better in the second half.
Hopefully, my left IT band will loosen up and my right upper hamstring will stop squawking. The squawking has diminished greatly, but I want it gone for good.
All the best to you.
Update on training progression...So, I finished the 12wks alternating E, Threshold, MP weeks in 3wk cycles. Everything was going great and I was i low 2.50's shape. Then I got a cold and didn't run for 11 days. The first run I did was the marathon, feeling 100% recovered from the cold the day before the race. Managed to do 2.59 in ridiculous downpour. So, BQ 2016 -check. Now I'm building up my miles for so hard core hill work this coming autumn/winter.
+40 master wrote:
Hi!
Some background on my training this year. After suffering from bad sinusitis and a stupid accident, I started from zero after 2 months of no running or training at all. Add to that 2wks of vacation in Costa Rica with loads of beer and food. It was hard to get into the running again and the first week my legs felt like concrete! Anyway, I manage to get through the first weeks and now I'm working towards a marathon 30th may in order to BQ 2016. I need to do 3.15, but I'm traning to be in 2.55 shape in order to be able to still qualify even if the weather is hot come race day. My training consists of 3wk cycles of LT-MP-E weeks, where I go 20mi+ long run on E week. As I progress, the MP week will also move closer to +20mi, but with progressively more MP.
The training so far:
32mi - all E
46mi - all E, +10x20" and 17mi long run
49mi - all E, +10x20" and 19mi long run
50mi -LT wk, Q1: 2x2mi(T)/2'+3x1000(10k). Q2: 2x1mi/1'+2mi/2'+1mi (all LT)
52mi -MP wk, Q1: 4mi+3mi/1k jog rest (MP). Q2: 8mi(MP)
51mi -E wk, 2x10x20" 20mi long run
52mi -LT wk. Same as last LT wk. adjusted speed. 5'47 (10k), 6:14 (LT)
So next week is MP week again. Getting into the groove now and running comes more natural than the first weeks :) Happy to be pounding 50mi weeks and really feel that I'm builing myself up. Fortunately for me, I'm a quick responder and I respond fast to stimulus. That got me back on track quite fast. I'm really annoyed that I was in the shape of my life last year at 2:48 and instead of building on that, I was time warped back into the shape I was in 3yrs ago. Bummer. I'm determined to get back to the level I was and to improve! Time will tell.
Just an update on how my training has evolved after my marathon this past summer.
I took to heart the increase milage advice and worked things up from 45mi/wk and I'm now doing 55-60mi/wk as normal. A month ago I raced a half in 1.21.10, beating my previous PR by 12sec, but set 6 yrs ago. That got me psyched as I'm turning 43 now. So I will continue running in the 55-60mi/wk range until I start the marathon build up for Boston late december. Feels really good that I'm in half PR shape going into the training. On track for reaching 2.45. Let's see. Basically, I focused on the milage, 1 threshold/tempo session and a long run and some strides. Seems to be working.
Back to training..