Wejo- Big Ten 7 times deeper then heps

I have to second that one. The big ten is far deeper than heps. But what do think he going to say.

The teams from the heps are in one of the weakest regions and got no teams to NCAA way to go...the big ten got in 7 teams in the hardest region (great lakes) and two in the midwest. Wejo, the heps suck

heps suck wrote:

The teams from the heps are in one of the weakest regions and got no teams to NCAA way to go...the big ten got in 7 teams in the hardest region (great lakes) and two in the midwest. Wejo, the heps suck

You people have no idea what you're talking about. It's precisely the fact that the Heps teams are in weak regions that keeps them from qualifying from NCAAs. Sorry, but put Ohio State (just for example, not to pick on them) in Mid-Atlantic, and they aren't going to nationals. Being in a weak region means you HAVE TO be top 2 to get to nationals. Slip up and you're not getting pushed in by other teams. It is easier to qualify out of deeper regions because there's a greater chance that any one of 6 or 7 teams with a lot of points will slip up and let a less-qualified team get pushed in. Penn and Columbia were 3rd in their respective regions. I'd say that's pretty damn good. These two teams (and Dartmouth) would probably be top 4 in ANY conference in the NCAA (not to mention, probably top 25 teams were they to run at NCAAs).

And if anyone seriously thinks Cornell would not beat the crap out of PSU and especially Purdue, you are grossly mistaken. Even this year's Harvard team (one of the worst Ivy teams in years) would wreck Purdue. This is why the Heps is the deepest league in the NCAA. Good teams up front, solid in the middle, and even the worst teams would not come in last in ANY other conference.

The Ivy League has I think 7 NCAA individual qualifiers (probably 4 or 5 of which have really good shots at AA honors), which shows you they have solid individuals as well as team depth.

What a lame argument. Being in a weak region means nothing, and IF you're in a weak region and you don't get Top 2 than what does that say about your team?

There are pleny of racing opportunities for teams in weak regions to get points and prove themselves against other teams that will go to Nationals. That's the importance of Notre Dame Invite, Roy Griak, and Pre-Nats.

Now, if you have an ignorant coach that won't spend the money or drive to these races, than I can't help you.

The Big 10 is a lot deeper than the heps or any other conference. Anyone who argues with that is either not being honest with themselves or uninformed.

You could argue that the Big East is as good up front as the Big 10. With Notre Dame, Georgetown, Providence, and Villanova. Yes Nova bombed at regionals, but they were a good team throughout the year. I agree that no conference is as deep as the Big 10.

If you had to rank the Big East and Big 10:

1. Wisconsin

2. Notre Dame

3. Georgetown

4. Providence

5. Michigan

6. Indiana

7. Villanova

8. Minnesota

9. Ohio State

10. Michigan State

11. Iowa

If you score it as a duel with 4 scorers the Big East would win 16-20. If you put Villanova 10th it would be a 19-19 tie.

what ever wrote:

It is easier to qualify out of deeper regions because there's a greater chance that any one of 6 or 7 teams with a lot of points will slip up and let a less-qualified team get pushed in.

Penn and Columbia were 3rd in their respective regions. I'd say that's pretty damn good. These two teams (and Dartmouth) would probably be top 4 in ANY conference in the NCAA (not to mention, probably top 25 teams were they to run at NCAAs).

This is why the Heps is the deepest league in the NCAA. Good teams up front, solid in the middle, and even the worst teams would not come in last in ANY other conference.

The Ivy League has I think 7 NCAA individual qualifiers (probably 4 or 5 of which have really good shots at AA honors), which shows you they have solid individuals as well as team depth.

Wow, I don't know where to begin with this....

1) It is not easier for the teams in the Great Lakes and Mountain to qualify because they can easily get pushed in by better teams. Ohio State is the only team in the Great Lakes that got pushed in. It is easier for them to qualify because they know they have to travel to good meets to get points to get out of a tougher region.

2) Penn, Columbia and Dartmouth would be in the top 4 in any conference and top 25 in NCAA's? Are you serious? NONE of those teams would be top 4 in the Big 10 or Big East. At PreNats, Columbia and Dartmouth got 16th and 17th. They were beaten heads up by Michigan St(7th in the Big 10), Clemson(4th in the ACC), Miami(2nd at the Mac), Washington(4th in Pac 10), and New Mexico(3rd in Mtn West).

3) The heps are not the deepest conference. Quit saying that. They have 0 NCAA qualifers. Congratulations on 7 at large individuals, but that is the case becaues they have 0 teams. The best heps team would be, at best, 5th in the Big 10. The fact that last place heps team may beat Purdue does not make you a deep conference. It means Purdue stinks.

4) The big 10 has at least 12 AA candidates: Carlson from the Midwest. From the Great leakes- Teg, Solinsky, Bairu, Spiker, Lockhart, Nelson, Brannen, Woods, Jefferson, Jefferson, and Olinger.

9 teams from the great lakes wrote:

Wejo, the Big Ten is by far the best conference in terms of upfront with Wis, Indiana, and Mich...and in terms of depth, they are going to have 7 teams going to NCAA. That thing about the heps being the deepest conference...I don't think the 7th place team in Heps, Cornell, could even touch anyteam in the Big Ten, except maybe Purdue or Penn State

Princeton was 6th in the Heps this year, but beat Michigan State and Illinois this year and Penn State a couple of times (including yesterday at Regionals).

So that would put the 6th team in the Heps at least 6th in the Big Ten.

Phil. wrote:

9 teams from the great lakes wrote:

Wejo, the Big Ten is by far the best conference in terms of upfront with Wis, Indiana, and Mich...and in terms of depth, they are going to have 7 teams going to NCAA. That thing about the heps being the deepest conference...I don't think the 7th place team in Heps, Cornell, could even touch anyteam in the Big Ten, except maybe Purdue or Penn State

Princeton was 6th in the Heps this year, but beat Michigan State and Illinois this year and Penn State a couple of times (including yesterday at Regionals).

So that would put the 6th team in the Heps at least 6th in the Big Ten.

actually it wouldn't. There are 11 in the Big 10.

The Big 10 is the best conference in America. When i said the Heps was the deepest country in the league, i meant the last teams in the heps would clean up versus the last teams in the other leagues. At lot of leagues are very top heavy. For example look at the Big East. There are 4 teams who swept the top 26 places at conference then the other ten teams bring up the rear. The Big 10 isn't like this as their first 7 obviously are pretty good.

wejo wrote:

Phil. wrote:

Princeton was 6th in the Heps this year, but beat Michigan State and Illinois this year and Penn State a couple of times (including yesterday at Regionals).

So that would put the 6th team in the Heps at least 6th in the Big Ten.

actually it wouldn't. There are 11 in the Big 10.

Well there were only 10 teams in their XC championships this year! Michigan State came 7th and PU has a win over them this year.

Just because Princeton beat Mich St one time doesn't automatically mean they would be at least 6th in the Big 10. I mean, Mich St also beat Columbia and Dartmouth who went 1-2 at Heps.

Also, Mich St's #2 man right now (Andy Marsh) didn't run when MSU lost to Princeton.

And there are only 10 schools in the Big 10 for XC. Northwestern does not have a mens team.

Does anyone really think any team from Heps could beat any of the 7 teams that qualified from the big ten if they ran today. You have to be kidding me.

Wejo, I agree that the Big East, PAC Ten, ACC and a lot of other conferences are top heavy. I mean Rutgers is the worst distance program on earth and they are in the Big East. So yes 7th in the hep meet is a lot better then 7th in the big east.

However when it comes to the big ten, even Ill. is a very good team at least on par with anyone in the hep. Penn State and Purdue are pretty bad, but not typical bottom of a big conference suck ass Rutgers bad.

Ok, so Pre-nats = Nationals now? Who gives a shit how they did at Pre-nats. Sorry, but put Penn or Columbia in NCAAs and they beat at least 5 teams. They have the low sticks to do so.

Yes, it is easier for teams to qualify out of GL, arguing against that is absurd. Put Penn or Columbia there and they get pushed in. Sorry, that's just how it is.

Teams in the Big 10 have more opportunities to get points because 1) Most big meets (pre-nats, Griak, Notre Dame) are all in that area. Teams from the MA and NE can't be getting on a damn plane every weekend. 2) Conference is a good opportunity to get points (more top heavy). Heps is not.

Great, they have more people who could be AA. First of all, I wasn't trying to argue that Heps has better individuals. They don't. Wisco alone beats them out. However, many of these AA probables are only going to nationals because they are on teams who qualified. One could argue that Casey Moriarty would also be an AA candidate being that at Heps he beat Lieb, Smith, and Tarpy who are all going to Nats (Lieb was top 30 two years ago). But unfortunately, he was first man out in the NE. It must be noted that it's also easier to run a good race at NCAAs if you have your team pulling you along.

MA is weak, but has two solid, probably top-15 teams up front. That's what not getting out of a weak region says for you who asked.

The Ivy league IS the deepest in the NCAA. This does not mean the best. I would agree that Big 10 is probably the best. However, through and through, Heps is deeper. That being said, this argument will go nowhere and accomplish nothing, so let's just end it (and I know the person who started it just did so to try and piss of Wejo).

Are you really saying that the Ivy League is the deepest distance conference in the NCAA? How did you get in to your school? How deep are you going? The Ivy is behind the Big 10, the Pac 10, the SEC, and the Big 12 -- hell the ACC is on par with the Ivy.

The Mountain West Conference is pretty damn good with 4 out of the 6 teams qualifing for nationals and taking 4 of the top five spots at regionals.

Man, anyone who argues the Ivy League is deeper then the big ten, deserves to go some school in the SEC. Lets be honest you IVY leaguers are sub par when it comes to cross country. Great you are better then the bottom feeders of big conferences, Rutgers, SH, Pitt, Purdue, KState...who cares. When it comes to schools like all 7 of the Big Ten teams who made it, any team from the IVY league would lose to all 7 of them. The best an IVY league team could do is expect to be 8th. As a matter of fact the best team the Ivy (hyde, the guy from Columbia, Upenn kid etc) could throw out there, vs. Wisco, loses. Againist Michigan with Willis loses, and againist Indiana it would be close. (With IU going 1,2 Jeferrson Twins, then the Ivy boys getting 3,4,5 but after that its a toss up.

So Mr. Arrogant Ivy boy, you made a lead a life of privilege smoking cigars with Ivy league buddies and living off money your grandfather earned, but the blue collar boys of the Big Ten would send you down for the dirt nap on the cross country course.

This is the worst, most incorrect, and most grammatically-incorrect post I have ever seen on letsrun. Congratulations. Perhaps you should spend more time studying than posting here, Mr. Big 10. If you'd like to actually try to rebut some of the points made here (and not argue against points not being made) instead of posting inane dribble and fallacies, come back. For now, hit the books smarty.

what ever, do you understand how a team qualifies if it is not one of the two automatic teams from a region?

OK, Im not trying to be a dick. Just trying to have a good discussion...

1) PreNats doesn't equal Nats. However, that is as close a comparison as we can get since the Ivies will not be at the big dance. I used that race as a comparison because that is the only time the saw those other teams head to head.

2)If Penn and Columbia(and their respective wins during the season) were in the Great Lakes they would probably not have gotten in. The only way that either team gets in is if they finish 5th or better(ahead of Butler, Michigan or IU). If they finished directly in front of Ohio State they are dead. If they finish directly behind Ohio State they are dead. If Columbia and Penn finished back to back(even 3rd and 4th) they are dead. There is actually no way that BOTH teams could get at larges. It is not possible.

3)Other teams have more chances to get points than Ivies? Princeton went to Notre Dame. Columbia, Dartmouth, Yale, Princeton and Brown were all at PreNats. Great America is on the east coast. They had chances to race Providence and Iona. They didnt' get points because they didn't beat the teams they did race that qualified. If qualifying was that important to their atheltic dept, they would pay for them to go to 2 or 3 good meets.

4) All of the AA candidates I mentioned from the Great Lakes would have made it indivudally from their region if their teams did not make it.

5) I'm not sure what the definition of deepest is. So its probably something we're both right about in our own way. I believe deepest is having the most NCAA qualifiers. You believe it is having the most consistent teams? Is that fair to say?

Actually, I think an ivy all star team would have a shot to beat Wisconsin, those other schools definately.