Which State Has Best All-Time High-School Cross-Country Team?

ILL- wrote:

California- Meb K, Hall then...

Jeff Nelson...

German Fernandez...

Ammar Moussa...

Michigan - Ritzenhein, Meyer, Fisher, Diemer, Williams, maybe Hartmann

I'm a bit confused by your criteria.

Your title asks which state has the best all-time HIGH SCHOOL cross country team, but in your thread, you evaluate based on post-high school credentials. This is very odd, since nothing that any runner does post-HS has any effect on how great of a high school athlete he/she was.

Additionally, you don't seem to be very consistent with your actual evaluations. You leave Verzbicas out of the IL top-5, despite the fact that he is probably the best high school distance runner to come out of the state, because he supposedly lacks post-HS success after his injury. Yet for Michigan, you include Fisher, whose post-HS accomplishments are entirely nonexistent since he's still in school.

You also leave Evan Jager out of the IL top 5, but somehow decide to include Donald Sage. Yes, Sage was a great HS athlete, but since you're listing off post-HS accomplishments, Jager absolutely blows Sage away. After all, Sage's running career ended right after college, while Jager has gone on to perform very well internationally, and nab an American record.

In short, you should decide whether or not you want to evaluate the best all-time HIGH-SCHOOL cross country teams by state, or the best all-time cross country teams by state.

Minnesota will be tough to beat:

Garry Bjorklund

Steve Plasencia

Bob Kempainen

Mark Nenow

Garrett Heath

Hassan Mead

Steve Holman

That's 5 Olympians.

The crazy thing is that this team would be great through the 20th man.

Here's s little start to the women's team from MN:

Goucher, Tollefson, Klecker....Olympians

Mi Bad wrote:

Michigan - Ritzenhein, Meyer, Fisher, Diemer, Williams, maybe Hartmann

Not even close to Illinois. Brian Diemer? He was a scrub until his senior year in college when he broke through in the Steeple.

If you are only including high schoolers its between Illinois and Cali.

California team of German Fernandez, Jeff Nelson, Eric Reynolds, Marc Davis, Chuck Assuma, Jay Marden, and the Mastilirs are the only team that could challenge Illinois. But typical to Cali runners, in a real cross race, Illinois with Virgin, Verzibicus, Sage, Derrick, Jorge Torres, and Dave Merrick would bring the Midwest thunder. Especially in real high school cross country, and not running on pavement and dry dirt.

I did forget Eric Hults from California. He would have been 4th or 5th in any cross country race of 17-18 year old Americans even today.

Hulst and Rich Kimball were world xc junior champions. Kimball (8:46, 4:06 double in state meet) has to be on the team.

You have to base this on HS stats alone, if you're attempting to answer the original question.

Michigan clearly bests Illinois. 5 Footlocker champs in top 5...

Grosso

Alzindani

Ritz

Moore

Fisher

Throw in top three Hartmann and Williams.

Who's beating them? Really?

For girls, let's see a state that could beat this team from Cali:

Trotter, Stamps, Hasay, Bei, Baxter

meat chicken wrote:

You have to base this on HS stats alone, if you're attempting to answer the original question.

Michigan clearly bests Illinois. 5 Footlocker champs in top 5...

Grosso

Alzindani

Ritz

Moore

Fisher

Throw in top three Hartmann and Williams.

Who's beating them? Really?

Yeah but Illinois has something Michigan will never have MATTHEW MF WITHROW!

California had at least 4 World Junior XC champions:

Hulst, Kimball, Thom Hunt and Bobby Thomas. Illinois and Michigan together had zero. Add in Jeff Nelson, Marc Davis, Matt Guisto, German Fernandez, Moussa, Mastalirs.

California could probably have two teams beat any other state, but of course they have twice the population and five times the weather.

Illinois has a good argument: Virgin, Verzbicas, Sage, Spivey, Graves

Three of the girls on that list are from the same LEAGUE, the North Bay League in Sonoma County: Stamps, Trotter, Bei. Add Kim Conley to that mix (same HS as Bei), and maybe now Alia Gray, sub 2:40 marathoner (but who was good but not great in HS admittedly). Or Trina Cox, who ran for Santa Rosa HS with Stamps. She won a State Div. 1 CC title (and also finished 2nd to Lauren Fleshman) but never won an NBL League title (thanks to Stamps and Bei). Crazy good league.

hgty wrote:

For girls, let's see a state that could beat this team from Cali:

Trotter, Stamps, Hasay, Bei, Baxter

I also left off FL champions Kim Mortensen and Kristen Gordon.

On the boys side CA has 8 FL champions: Hall, Acosta, Quintana, Dameworth, Davis, Giusto, Reynolds, and Marden. Then throw in Kimball, Hulst, Hunt, Nelson, Fernandez, etc.

To clarify, I meant to discuss which state could put together the best high-school 5K XC team using runners from any era. Which is pretty much what posters have done so far.

If somebody wasn't great in hs, then they aren't great in this race. But IMO, post hs accomplishments can be used to reveal competitive strengths and compare one 8:4x hs 2 miler to another. Assume fall race conditions and team results actually matter. Top 30 states qualify for 210 athlete race, the start matters and its possible to get trapped back in the pack.

Appreciate info on Michigan, Minnesota and California hs greats. Think it would be a great fantasy race to draw up fictional report on-

Mi Bad wrote:

Michigan - Ritzenhein, Meyer, Fisher, Diemer, Williams, maybe Hartmann

Doug Brown easily beatz Meyer, Fisher and Diemer.

meat chicken wrote:

You have to base this on HS stats alone, if you're attempting to answer the original question.

Michigan clearly bests Illinois. 5 Footlocker champs in top 5...

Grosso

Alzindani

Ritz

Moore

Fisher

Throw in top three Hartmann and Williams.

Who's beating them? Really?

Yes, Michigan is definitely the best.

/Thread

Cross country existed before Footlocker. Its clearly between California and Illinois all-time. Then probably Michigan but Ohio would be right with them.

Alan Scharsu-8:44.0 2 miler

George Nicholas-4th IAAF World Junior Cross

Bob Kennedy-Footlocker Champion. 4:05 mile

John Zishka--13:55 5k, 4:03 mile

Scott Fry-Footlocker Champion, 8:08.1 3k

Ricky Pittman-8:46 3200

It's Cali, beetches

Oregon also has

Matthew Maton

Bill McChesney

Ian Dobson

Eric Logson

Ryan Vail

Kenny Klotz