Road Racing and Training Thread - Week Ending 10/19

GarbageDisposal- I still don't understand how you can race good in the middle of a 100+ mile week lol. You're gonna crush it once you taper for your peak race.

Forcerunner- Nice race! I bet it was a bit awkward having those Kenyans just sitting in you lol. I think on a flat course you would've been much faster. Your splits were up and down that's why I assume that. Had to of been nice hitting that 4:58 even though it was downhill.

Garbage: Yeah, in hindsight I was pretty pleased with this session. I have some decent footspeed - so I have to be a litte bit cautious to not rush the speed work.

RunnersFix: I will run a marathon as my \"A\" goal race. I think I\'ll run one in April. The next couple of weeks I\'d like to get into about 29:30 or even 29low 10k shape (till January or so)... We\'ll see. The longer stuff and strides are comin\' around pretty good already, but damn... I did some intervalls yesterday and sub 5 minute pace on the roads still doesn\'t feel too easy :-)

I think to keep more control of my efforts I might shift some of my speedwork back to the track as it\'s hard to gauge fitness when your exclusively running on the roads like I do it right now.

Pikachu

Good luck this weekend NP112. My body is kinda out of whack this week too, running less and more stuff hurts!

For all you marathon gurus, for my information, say you're in 3:25 shape, go out at 3:20 pace (1:40 at the half), are you more likely to finish at 3:30 or 3:50? I've read for every minute too fast at the half you'll give back 2.

Btw, the taper crazies have set in!!!!

NP112: Hopefully you won't stand at the finish laughing at me if I misjudge my fitness!

Apologies for the lateness of this, stayed in Amsterdam for a few days after and drunk beer and ate too much food.

Congrats to Forcerunner, pewow, cmm268, TheGarbageDisposal, DistanceFan and Reed on some excellent racing.

Well done Xenon as well despite challenging circumstances, my legs were doing somethimg similar when I was overtrained earlier this year, hope it all works out for you.

My race didn't go to plan unfortunately but I still had a decent experience, with the overtraining/mystery illness my training has been very poor this time round and I'd constanly shifted my expectations from 3:10, to 3:15 to eventually just PR'ing (3:21) but you may remember me saying I thought I was actually in about 3:25 shape. That turned out to be a pretty good guess. I'll give a bit of a report below to show how it all played out.

I met up with a clubmate prior to the start and he cheerfully told me he had done 1 longrun of 16 miles which had gone horribly and nothing else, he said he was going to stick with me for as long as he could and then hopefully come in under 3:30. He immediately shot off at about 7 min mile pace and it would be a while before I saw him again.

The race basically went perfectly until the 18th mile as these things often do. I went through halfway in 1:38:52 and caught my clubmate just after this at 14 miles where he was complaining of cramping. Miles 1-17 were all ticked off at between 7:24 and 7:33 pace and I actually felt really good at 17 miles, almost like a runners high, legs were tingling and I felt great.

I started to slow a little at this point but still felt like I could keep my pace under 8 min miles and record a decent time, mile 18 was 7:43, 19 7:50 and 20 8:00. You can probably see where this is going now and the fade continued from here to the end. The last 10k turned into a bit of a headwind and I just kept slowing down. I felt surisingly ok, but just couldn't go faster. 21 was 8:10, 22 was 8:22, 23 8:35 and 24 8:53.

I started to struggle during mile 24 and felt bad for the first time, this continued into 25 and my pace dropped all the way to 9:11. I tried to salvage something in the 26th mile, but as I knew a PR was long gone I just didn't have as much fight as I should have had and managed 8:44 pace. The finish was great, back into the Olympic stadium where we started and 200m on the track, I managed a bit of a kick from somewhere and ran the last 0.4 at 7:02 pace. Obviously I ran a little long, mainly due to having to weave past people in the first few miles.

I finished with a time of 3:25:30, I think I could have got that under 3:25 if I'd really pushed but there was no way I was getting anywhere near my PR.

For DistanceFans information, my average pace was 7:47 and if I'd have stuck to a more conservative 7:40 pace I think I would have avoided the worst of the fade at the end and would probably have been pretty close to my PR (3:21:42). Although to be honest, I think the fade is inevitable when you are only doing 40-60 miles a week.

I was dissapointed afterwards, but as I said considering the awful time I've had training, where I considered just quiting running altogether, it could have been worse. 4 weeks of no runnnig at all now to hopefully sort myself out and then going to concentrate on some shorter stuff over the winter, try and get my 5k down to sub 19 in the Spring.

Distance Fan wrote:

For all you marathon gurus, for my information, say you're in 3:25 shape, go out at 3:20 pace (1:40 at the half), are you more likely to finish at 3:30 or 3:50? I've read for every minute too fast at the half you'll give back 2.

If you are in 3:25 shape and go out at 3:20 pace you will feel it pretty soon IMHO. Listen to your body - it's crucial in the marathon and many people just go by pace, not by feel. A huge mistake if you ask me. If you listen to your body usually you won't fade THAT bad because you should decelerate a bit before you get into the "death march mode".

Some folks just run pace "X" until they blow up. I never understood that as your top priority should always be to be able to finish (in my opinion).

Good luck!

Pikachu

Once and Future gives me hope! Nice job holding it together on a less than ideal day. My friend had a great day, even though he faded about 6 minutes of his starting pace and a lot of people were saying it was hot. 62 isn't hot, that's a standard 5 am temperature here through mid September, if the dew point was also 62.

The rest that follows is a crazy, taper induced, jittery nerves, don't inspired ramble. Feel free to ignore it totally!

I "think" I'm in closer to 3:18 shape on a flat course, given good weather. Of course I've never ran over 22 miles, so how do I know for sure? :). I also have some concern of the pancake profile of Indy. I didn't run much of anything flat, except some early treadmill runs. Most everything here is moderately hilly.

At 3:20 (1:40 half) I'd be 6 minutes off my recent half pace, which was fairly hilly and because of a wrong turn I ran at least a minute going the wrong way (and backtracking). I did the last 10 of that 22 miler at 7:35 (the first 9 of those 10 were 7:25, that last one was a beast of a hill) and overall was pretty hilly in general.

The only reason I'm contemplating it is because I don't think 3:20 is an extreme reach, maybe even just right. The pace group coordinator is at least looking into a 3:20 group. I guess running with the 3:25 through the half is the smartest move, and then maybe trying to ease down to 3:20 pace. I've got to quit dwelling on this race!!!! I'm going to commit to waiting until I talk to the pace leaders to decide. I'd be better off with a slower start than straight to pace, because I'm afraid to do too much warming up pre-race. So many variables, so little control, and so much time for crap to go wrong. I guess this is why it's interesting!

At least the first view of the forecast looks good. But it has plenty of time to change.

Pikachu - thanks for the good advice. Finish is #1 goal (other than make it to the start line healthy). I saw an older thread, apparently you're quite the marathoner (Sub 2:18?), obviously you know what you're doing. I don't really have this running by feel thing mastered yet. Last weekend I ran 14 at 3:25 pace on accident, I was trying to take it easy because I had run a 10k race the day before and I was kind of tired, and it felt pretty easy. That's why I want to run with a pace group as long as possible (but still be cognizant of the fact they may screw up too).

If I was more confident of my own pacing abilities, if probably start out slower, but build to near 3:20 pace by about mile 3. I may still do that, just don't pass the 3:20 group before mile 20, no matter what! I figured a group might be more fun and give me something to focus on.

Once and Future- Well done man! It's was a real battle of a cycle for you. You definitely need a break for a while to recover. I felt the same way last year going into the marathon. I cut back on racing this year and feel a lot better. I was so heavily overtrained that I was 6 minutes slower over 10k only 4 months after running a 10k PB.

Your racing schedule looked insane over the past few months which is going to lead to burnout/overtraining very quickly. No one can keep up that intensity for long. I raced 38 races last year and that's what caused my problems. I cut back to probably around 12 this year and felt a million times better. I had to look past the short term and wanting to blitz my PR's every week. I think that it would be a good option for you to substantially cut down on the amount of races you run. You will feel a lot better and improve more.

Recovery is where running gains are made. You want to balance intensity with recovery to keep performance increases. It might sound counterintuitive but constantly doing intense training will actually decrease your base fitness and on top of that, it takes longer to recover. Double edged sword and all that.

Comments!

Stone Cutter: Great workouts this week! You hit pretty much everything perfectly.

Pikachu: Thanks! Again, you're getting in monster shape super quick! Very very solid week.

StevenJ: Lots of time on feet for you this week! Great cutdown on the 3x2.

Pewow: Nice race! Solid progression of your mile splits.

NP1112: Best of luck in your race! You're going to destroy it! Next goal buildup will be another Half in the spring. The Cap City Half Marathon in Columbus is going to host the USA Half champs in 2016/17 so I figured I would run on the course to get a feel for it. Maybe a few indoor races over the winter as well... We'll see.

Netwerk: Thanks! Good luck with your race.

RunnersFix: Great progression! Looks like you're full back into the swing of things.

Hereford: Thanks! Nice week. Were the hill sprints directly after the mile reps? I've heard some interesting things about doing hill sprints after a tempo run to stimulate fiber recruitment.

Slartzio: Nice week! What sort of weights do you do?

KBXC: They can't all be good ones, you'll be back on top of it soon enough!

Cmm268: I thought the hotel was pretty close! Great report and writeup. It made me re-live the 13 miles of uncomfortable-ness haha. I had a bit far on my Garmin as well...

HS_Run: Good luck with the rest of your meets!

Renewed: Stick with it! Who knows, maybe that 1st day after six months will be a breakthrough.

DistanceFan: Solid 10k! That was probably a smart tune-up type workout for Indy.

Nop200: Very nice week. Sounds like you're well on your way to reaching your goals.

Garbage Disposal: Nice week! Very very solid HM to close out the week!

Reed: I would have said the same things a few years ago. You never know what will happen with hard work. Very nice race!

Xenon: Wow, a whole 6k on pure hate! All jokes aside, hoping you feel better soon.

Ghola: Nice close to the 3x1.45 mile!

Bonham: Thanks! Your legs are probably still fatigued, so 4:52 is great!

Kendo: Taper looks nice! Best of luck!!

RegFields: Even with the extra distance on that Half you're well on track for sub 3 at Philly.

Sps: Very consistent week! I need to start wearing my HR monitor again...

Habs: Great description for the runs. Pretty quick 200s on Friday!

Once and Future: Thanks! Sorry to hear everything didn't go as planned, but you'll get it next time!

It was really humid, again not looking for excuses. It was 94% humidity at 9AM, it was warm but I didn't find it too hot, I think it peaked at 66.

I personally think as I mentioned previously on low (for a marathon) mileage, a fade of some description is inevitable. Pfitzinger agrees in his book as well. It just shouldn't be as bad as mine was. A few seconds a mile as oppose to a minute.

I don't think there's anything wrong with you going out at 3:20 pace, adjusting if it feels like effort. I also think pace groups are over-rated, at our speed there are so many people about, there's always someone to run with.

@ Netwerk Errer Yeah, I definitely need to take a step back. I love racing though unfortunately! I'm not sure if the weekly parkruns are doing me good either. Basically racing a 5k every weekend and then often other things as well.

I personally think the main issue for me is just longruns, it always seems to be when I run for over 2 hours that I start having problems. Maybe they are affecting me because I'm already run down from all the racing. Going to keep it shorter this cycle.

I only have 3 races pencilled in between now and the New Year at the minute, which is a lot less than usual!

Once and Future wrote:

I finished with a time of 3:25:30, I think I could have got that under 3:25 if I'd really pushed but there was no way I was getting anywhere near my PR.

For DistanceFans information, my average pace was 7:47 and if I'd have stuck to a more conservative 7:40 pace I think I would have avoided the worst of the fade at the end and would probably have been pretty close to my PR (3:21:42). Although to be honest, I think the fade is inevitable when you are only doing 40-60 miles a week.

First of all, congratulations on running a brave effort! Keeping in mind all of the time you had missed and your lack of total volume, 3:25 is a very respectable result - even within the realm of your PR. And while 1:38:XX/1:45:XX is not the fun way to run a marathon, it certainly isn't the worst fade I have seen. I have managed a 1:42/2:01, 1:29/1:53, and 1:26/1:41 in my lifetime - all of which involved a lot of pain, cursing, and walking. At least you got to celebrate in a fun city afterward, haha.

But I wanted to address a couple of your points. I don't think a fade in a marathon has to be inevitable, even on relatively lower mileage. My PR (2:55:57, done in negative splits 1:28:14/1:27:43) came off of a cycle where I averaged 58 mi/wk over 18 weeks. I am probably going to end up only averaging about 62mi/wk this cycle, and I certainly hope to improve upon my PR.

To Pikachu's point before, so much of the marathon has to do with proper pacing. I am sure if you went out at 8:00/mi pace for 20mi, and then finished the last 10K at 7:30/mi, you would have felt great in every way - except for the overall finishing time. So the real key is, how do you gauge the proper effort versus the proper goal?

I am sure most of us run with a GPS watch or some similar tool that allows us to measure our pace during training runs. The question is, which is Distance Fan's question, how do we know it's the RIGHT pace?

If you know my training, you know I am meticulous about the pace zones I hit in training, which certainly give me great information. But what you may not know is that, for the vast majority of workouts, I very RARELY look at my watch once I "lock into" the desired pace. I would rather get the "effort" right, and see where my chips fall, then get the "pace" right and have overextended myself to do so.

For example, when I ran my half-marathon simulator in September, I used my Garmin the first 1.5mi to ease into the pace, intentionally running slower than goal pace (6:25/mi) so that I could ease my way into it. My first 3mi splits were 6:39, 6:32, 6:26. From there to mile 10, I looked at my watch maybe a total of 3 to 4 times, instead using the mile clocks along the course to see how I was doing. Believe it or not, every mile from Mile 4 to Mile 10 was 6:21-:28. I ran "to feel" and ended up staying right in the zone I wanted. Then as I planned, I finished faster.

Likewise, I NEVER go by my watch on easy days. I wear it to see how fast I ended up running, but I run totally to the "feel" of easy, not the "pace" of easy. EASY is a feeling, no? Some days EASY might be 7:45/mi. Some days EASY might be 8:45/mi. The point is to run easy.

Race running, especially marathon running, works best when you run to feel. You will get to 20mi in the marathon feeling like there is still something in the tank, and it is way more fun passing lots of a people at the end of a marathon than it is being passed. Psychologically and physically.

For those that don't consistently practice running by feel, I encourage it. If you already have a system that gets you the results you want, then I say stick with it. I know for me, I never got the results I wanted until I started running by feel. I guess we'll see in several weeks if it pays off again. :)

Sorry for the rant. Happy running.

Thanks Stonecutter.

I would argue that 58 and 62 are right at the top end of low marathon mileage and so some people will be able to avoid the fade at that mileage. It's certainly more than me and DistanceFan averaged.

I do completely agree though that running by feel is the way to go. The problem is, on race day for the first miles 7 min/mile feels easy, as does 7:30, as does 8. It's hard to know which is right without the past experience or knowing exactly your level of fitness.

My clubmate ran on feel on Sunday, went off at 7 min/mile which felt easy (he runs around 19 for 5k and his PR is 18:30ish) and then fell apart as he wasn't fit.

You need the experience in your training and earlier races to be able to know what is the correct level of effort for you. I'm not talking about experienced marathoners here and we are talking about lower mileage.

My thinking around DistanceFan is that if he goes out at 3:20 pace, he'll fade a little to 3:22-23, if he goes out at 3:25 pace he'll fade a little less to around 3:26, which will probably feel better but is slower time. If he went out at 3:30 pace then it would be so easy, he could probably hold that the whole way and would finish just under 3:30.

I know for me, if I'd have ran 20 miles at 8min/mile I wouldn't be able to push it to 7:30 in the last 6 miles. I would be able to hold the pace better though.

I will admit that you and Pikachu obviously know more about what you're taling about than me though! So maybe don't listen to me! Everything I'm writing about is just from my own experience such that it is.

Once and Future wrote:

I will admit that you and Pikachu obviously know more about what you're taling about than me though! So maybe don't listen to me! Everything I'm writing about is just from my own experience such that it is.

Malarkey! Your experience is just as valid as our experience. And a faster runner, doesn't always mean a smarter runner. Look at my past blowups for proof of that point.

But maybe I should clarify my statments. Easy days are the best days to run according to feel. After awhile you can play a fun game of guessing your mile splits, or guessing the average pace of the run. Usually I can guess within :05-:10/mi but some days my body is so wrecked I think I am running 8:15/mi when I am really running 8:40/mi, or there are days I feel so smooth that 8:15/mi "effort" is actually 7:50/mi pace. Over time you get better at guessing because you become more in tune with your body. But the important point is not to let the pace dictate the run, let the run dictate the pace.

As for workouts and races, especially longer races like a marathon, you are correct in that it can be foolish not to use the tools available like a GPS watch to help keep you in check. I encourage using the watch to help guide you into the proper pace over the first several miles, but then once you can consistently run that pace for 2-3mi, stop referring to the watch and start tuning into the body's signals. You can still check the mile splits or take peaks at the watch here and there, but like Pikachu advises, your body is really the best tool, not the watch. Are you breathing harder? Can you feel your turnover getting faster? Is there a hill in the course that throws you off the pace? Keep an even effort. It will all even out.

As for Distance Fan - I encourage everyone who is running his/her first marathon to make it as positive an experience as possible. Pick a time you feel VERY confident hitting, whether that is 2:30 or 3:00 or 3:30 according to your talent and training. Run the first 15-20mi at that "confident" pace, which should feel manageable and relatively easy, because your goal will be to finish strong. Then run the last 10K as fast as you can, like I said, passing as many people as you can. If you have never done it before, that is an AWESOME way to run a marathon. If you teach yourself from the start to finish strong, you make that a habit at future races.

So what if you leave a couple of minutes on the table when all is said and done - that is a WAY better alternative than losing lots of minutes because you are walking, cursing, and hurting the last 10K. :)

The Stone Cutter: You make sound points, to me at least. However, I'm not confident of much of anything related to the marathon. I have hiked the entire Appalachian Trail, and there were many days that were hard and unpleasant, but I'd do it again if I had the time (or the PCT, but that's a whole different goal). So unless something breaks I'll finish (and beat Oprah), even if it involves walking and pain. I try to keep my cursing to a minimum :)

It sounds like a delicate balance. The conservative answer is probably 3:30. The aggressive answer is probably 3:15. Typically, I race too conservatively (start too slow, finish with too much left). I finished my 10k PR with mile 6 a full 30 seconds faster than miles 1-5, and the final 0.2 at mile PR pace. The mile 6 was related some to course profile, but that last 0.2 was uphill slightly.

Do they have 3:22:30 pace groups?Probably, it is called a 3:25 group that starts too fast. I'm not sold on pace groups either, the two times I've ran with them they've been uneven and fast (one at the Flying Pig 1/2 was about 1 minute ahead at 5 miles - and it was the full marathon pacer, I felt bad for those people!). However, I think it provides a natural governor to at least make you think before you run off and leave them. It helped me run about 1.5 minutes faster than goal though, by going a bit faster earlier. I'd prefer to ease into the pace instead of shooting straight into it. I'm going to talk to the pacers and hear their strategies before I decide to run with them or not. I'm hoping the crowd will keep me in check for a couple of miles anyway.

Once and Future is also right, this is a big enough marathon that I should find people all the way to run with at my pace.

Does the doubt ease up after you've run a couple of these?

Stone: great post on pace and effort! I would give my input but would just be repeating everything you said.

Distance: you will have plenty of people around. In 2011 I ran 3:15:20 at monumental. Like you said about pace groups, we started out fast. I was with the 3:15 group. Could see the 3:10 group not too far ahead. So I slowly worked my way up to them over 6 miles. Got passed by the 3:15 pacer around mile 24-25. I was 197th overall with that time. And the race is even bigger now.

I would say whatever decision you make on a pace group, stick with them through 20. Then if you still feel good, go for it. 19-23 is a bare section of the course. Not too many spectators and gets lonely.

Go get 'em Np1112! As my old high school coach used to tell us before big races, even if you don't win, make them remember your name! :)

NP1112: Thanks. I noticed that there were about 300 finishers last year between 3:15 and 3:30. I'll likely never be alone ;)

Good luck this weekend. I'll be looking forward to your report to distract me this week! How in the world people make it through 50 (or 100) miles is beyond me, much less doing it fast.

Thanks guys! Temperature will be perfect. But the wind is out of control. Most likely throwing my aggressive time goals out and going for place. Championship style racing ftw! Haha

Distance: I still think you and my brother may be able to run together for some of the race. This is also his first. He ran a 1:33 tune up but was under 7:00 the last 6. If you want, email me and we can possible meet up and talk more next week.

Netwerk Error: Good luck man. I almost missed your race is Monday! Hope you're healed up and ready to go!