Arne Gabius EZ and LR pace: 5:50 min/mi - WHAT????? Never runs slower...

what a post. great.

and what a joy for gabius and all of us in germany as well. our marathon running is in a deep, deep crisis for years. right now there´s no other athlet like him, unfortunately. let´s hope gabius will make it for a few years.

let me point out two things. i am glad to see that it´s possible to achieve a good result with training at sea level. in the 80s -the ability to suffer was still common practice- we had dozens of sub 2:18 marathoners running in the mud, in the snow, in the rain, focused on running. nowadays it´s trendy for every runner who may be in touch with 2:30 marathon speed to be focused on travelling around in warm countries/altitude camps and to maintain huge internet homepages with long drwan-out chronicles about their competitions/training instead of running.

second, more runners should increase their average speed in training to get used to what they want: running fast.

Thank you very much for this post, Mr. Canova.

I have written some critical replies to your previous posts, but credit where credit is due. In terms of sharing the training plans of the runners you coach, and your training philosophy, you are really second to none, and this is a great example.

It will be interesting to see the outcome if your collaboration with Arne Gabius continues. He has clearly been the best male German distance runner for a few years, but to the general public (even those who run), runners like Jan Fitschen or Nils Schumann were still much better known. That's going to change now. Let's hope it gives him enough of a financial boost to continue life as a professional for a few years, as he clearly has other options. He should be able to negotiate something for Hamburg or similar in 2015 - still a long time to the world championships in Beijing after that.

@those who did understand the interviews in German.

He had 3 pacemakers. The first one (Andre Pollmächer) dropped out at 15k instead of going until HM as expected. Arne tried to convince the last remaining pacer (who was about to exit at 30k) to stay 2 more kilometers, without success... He then tried to hold back himself till 32k. Since he still felt quite comfortable at that point, he decided to take the risk and push as hard as possible. By the way, he ran fastest from 30k till finish line...

As already mentioned, he did not give a clear answer about his future plans. He just said that he was not able to give reliable statements at the moment.

About the comments from his former coach Dieter Baumann: He (as everybody) was pretty impressed by Arne's performance. Baumann emphasized that although his passion is court running and it would be sad to loss Arne there, his advice for Arne is to stay at the marathon after such a debut.

In a previous interview after the 10k from Berlin on 12.10. Arne said that he will benefit from the marathon training for 5 and 10k and he would like to continue on court next year. Especially, he would like to improve his 10k PB to 27:30 next year.

Native german speaker wrote:

about his future plans. He just said that he was not able to give reliable statements at the moment.

...which is very smart. Too much dumb sh*t has been said fter 26.2 miles...

2015 seems like a perfect Marathon year. He won't win anything at worlds and he knows that. So why bother?

Berlin is going to take a lot of money in their hands to sign him for next fall. A possible German record will get the local fans a lot more excited than yet another (yawn) world record. And despite being a WMM, Berlin is very much still a national Marathon.

The NR is only 40s away...

We have those guys in America too. His name is Tyler McCandless.

what an awesome debut. congrats Arne and coach Canova!

Hasn't Canova said that runners like Salazar and Shorter didn't matter and we should not pay any attention to what they trained like because they are so slow by today's standards?

Essentially, (at the time) if you can't break 2:05:00 you don't matter? I am being rhetorical, I KNOW he said this. Now the WR has advanced 1:00 since that time.

So why does he even bother coaching someone like Gabius?

He has said that he has run for 16 yrs (starting with a 14:26 5k - but this is slower than women and much slower than American/Kenyan high school transplants?). After that much time his PRs are slower than Salazar's. Why bother advising someone who clearly cannot break through to the world class level of marathoning (the WC level according to Canova)?

I hope it is clear that I support Gabius completely and think he is an amazing athlete. I take issue with someone like Canova who talks out of both sides of his mouth, maligning someone (or their approach) when it suits his agenda (and dismissing their training as antiquated and useless) and playing someone up when it suits him (and letting everyone know that he is their advisor).

Shorter ran faster than Gabius did in the 10k 3 times, he just did it 40 yrs ago. He ran near Gabius' 27:55 best (which was run THIS YEAR) 8 other times, and he did it at a much younger age. He also was able to run in the 2:10s without ever having rabbits.

Salazar also ran faster at 5k/10k, he was just 9 yrs younger when he did it. He ran 2:09:41 on the NY course, just 10 weeks after running 27:49 in London and 13:23 elsewhere. The main difference was he had an injury going into this period and only trained for 7 weeks fro this debut. Also, this was 34 yrs ago, and was done with no rabbits and he won the race, and did not finish 3:00 behind.

My point is not to slag Gabius, great job, of course. My point is to slag Canova and next time Canova pontificates about training, remember that he trained Gabius - someone the caliber of - he previously said was not even an elite runner.

not a fan wrote:

So why does he even bother coaching someone like Gabius?

My understanding is that Arne is self coached and Canova is more like an adviser to him than a coach. Arne has a PhD (M.D.) and I am sure he is trying to soak up everything he can about what Canova can teach him about training, scientifically fundamentally.

I am sure it is different for Canova to talk to someone as educated as Arne compared to your average East African runner that maybe has a high school degree but has never seen a university from inside.

Also, keep in mind that a German (or America, if you will, same thin) white runner with a 2:09 PR has basically the same earning potential as a 2:05 Kenyan.

My point was not anything about the quality of Gabius. He is great, and I admire him, have for years.

I just think it is funny how when people use Europeans and Americans from past or present in discussion of training or benefits of drugs, how Canova dismissed them as irrelevant because (he said) they were not even world-class. They were (according to him) 4-6 minutes away from world-class.

It was circular reasoning. The guys running 4-6 minutes faster than the runners from the '80s are able to do so because of the drugs that are available now and have been since 1990.

Canova insists that a 2:07-2:10 runner from the '80s doesn't factor into the discussion because they are so far behind "today's" marathoner. Well, there is a reason.

Coach Canova, when you write:

Renato Canova wrote: (after 3 weeks of big volume at intensity 80%) :

How many kms/week was "big volume" for Arne Gabius, and how long was the longest "long run" (at 3:40/45)?

Head Coach wrote:

How many kms/week was "big volume" for Arne Gabius, and how long was the longest "long run" (at 3:40/45)?

Am not Canova, but as the Training Weeks 35-39 are online: Arne did 255km, 253k and 220 k in the weeks 35-37 (last week of August and first 2 weeks of September.

That's big volume for him, because afaik he usually runs about 160-180km per week.

Longest run in this period was 40km @ 3'37/km.

After these 3 weeks, he tapered for the 10 mile competion, running 131 km, followed by a week with 206 km.

Greetings

C

5 weeks of Arne Gabius training:

http://www.arnegabius.de/downloads/training-35-39-kw-2014.pdf

Greetings

C

Tanks for the info.

Coach Canova, I have a second question though, about the purpose of the fartleks (series of 2' fast / 1' moderate, 1'/1', 30''/30'', etc.).

What is, approximately the speed of the fast and moderate bouts? Are the fast bouts run at ~mile race pace?

Concerning the purpose of these workouts: is it essentially a biomechanical type of workout (for creating feeling with high speed and easier technical action)? Or is the goal also to do at the same time some "VO2Max" type of training (maintenance of Arne's Aerobic power), using moderate pace/short recoveries to maintain close to 100% VO2Max all along the block?

I converted km/min to miles/min. 5:50 is the very lowest end of Canova's regeneration range for an elite marathoner (2:48 threshold). It sounds like Arne's threshold (max?) was 3:05~, in Canova's new post. That means 5:50 is still an exceptionally fast recovery pace for Kimetto, Kipsang, much less a 2:09 guy.

[quote]slow but not too slow wrote:

no "Wa?" needed. Canova did not contradict himself as he says to go slow, but not too slow:

For every event we have different speeds of REGENERATION, but normally the right speed is about 60-70 % of the speed of the Threshold. So, in case of a top Marathon runner, having a Threshold about 2:48 per km, we can speak of Regeneration when he runs slower than 3'40" / 3'45". In this case, 3'45" or 5' have the same effect, but many times running too slowly provokes mechanical problems.

Instead, for a good 800m runner (1'44") coming from 400m, and having a Threshold of 18 km/h (3'20" per km), Rigeneration is running slower than 4'10" / 4'20", but, because the biomechanical difference between the speed of the race (13" every 100m) and the speed of regeneration is very evident, sometimes is better to use other systems (pool, sauna or other situations not involving wrong running technique).

Read more:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=2959804&page=0#ixzz3HHc2A5jl

not a fan wrote:

Essentially, (at the time) if you can't break 2:05:00 you don't matter?... I KNOW he said this.

Post a link to it then.

Head Coach wrote:

Coach Canova, I have a second question though, about the purpose of the fartleks (series of 2' fast / 1' moderate, 1'/1', 30''/30'', etc.).

What is, approximately the speed of the fast and moderate bouts? Are the fast bouts run at ~mile race pace?

Likely MUCH slower. Maybe marathon pace or a bit under.

I know Canova's English isn't the best, but to misinterpret him to this extent is so egregious that I feel it must be intentional on your part. Canova was saying that Shorter and Salazar's training methods were inferior to the modern training methods employed by the top runners today. That doesn't mean he can't coach anyone who's slower than 2:05. Where the hell do you get that from?

More statements in this interview:

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/sport/gabius-mit-schnellstem-deutschen-marathon-debuet-13230585.html

Should he have tried the marathon, when he was younger (he is 33 years old)? "It was just the right time."

He has still "too much fun on the track" to switch permanently on the road and refers to Mo Farah for the range of distances (in 2014, Farah is No.1 in Europa for 3000 m and Gabius No.2). He wants to run the 10.000 m instead of the marathon in Beijing 2015 because of the air pollution and has no idea, which distance he's aiming at in Rio 2016.

Canova said to him: "If you reach your goal in Frankfurt, you can head for the German record (2:08:47 h) in 2015." Asked if he will try this in Frankfurt next year, he answers that he's still not in the state to think clearly about it.