Grant Fisher- 14:43 at Portage

High School Running Distance

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9 years ago 10/09/2014 8:02pm EDT

re: The game of CLUE

The game of CLUE wrote:
You can be amused all you want Mr. Hubbard, but we've used our wheel many times and backed it up on the track for verification of it's accuracy.
The argument will then be how do you know the track is accurate?...and on and on and on. Well, how do we know anything is accurate?
The bottom line is a wheel is close, very close if measured from point to point. If a course measures to within a few feet, then you're in the ball park of a stride or two.
MIS is accurate and feel free to measure it yourself, or anyone for that fact. You're a great announcer, simply one of the best, but you don't know everything about measuring cross country courses and the reality of obtaining accurate results. I measured a course yesterday for a coach and was within 2 feet of their finish line...that's accurate enough for a cross country race as it's not even half a second. And that 2 feet is if the runner goes from point to point as the course was laid out.
BINGO!!!!!
As for Milford and the coach hiding this and that, what a load of crap. I ran a course with 5 teammates together and we all finished in 15:31. We knew it wasn't accurate and the results didn't count towards our pr's. Any runner who was our competition, if having read the results, would immediately know that the course was BS by simply looking at our other times. You're not wining a mind game with bullshit courses as most runners and coaches actually know throughout the years what courses are real and what aren't.
Irrelevant, you're not winning anything by putting down a fast time thinking that it will have an effect on your "real" opponents. Trust me, they know the times are bullshit unless you are running them all season on courses known to be accurate. The Milford coach may have been trying to be smart, but he wasn't fooling anyone allegedly attempting to hide results and go in as an under dog. We ran against them in high school and laughed at their times. Honestly, it's childish as it's best.
scotth wrote:
Right you are about my role w/the Lower Peninsula Finals & course certification duties. They are quite separate. I've nothing to do w/layout & measurement of the MIS course. Frankly, if asked not sure which tool I'd use to measure it. Measuring wheels skip & it's tough to follow the shortest route available plus they need calibrating (which nobody that uses them does). Maybe try mounting my counter on a mtn bike. Too bad I can't take my road bike over it since I have my computer dialed in near perfectly. I'm always amused to see coaches @ MIS w/their wheels, taking measurements. Too hard to just pick a spot out to offer advice/encouragement? Mile splits are given, isn't that enough 'distance' info?

9 years ago 10/09/2014 8:26pm EDT

re: The game of CLUE

The game of CLUE wrote:
You can be amused all you want Mr. Hubbard, but we've used our wheel many times and backed it up on the track for verification of it's accuracy.
The argument will then be how do you know the track is accurate?...and on and on and on. Well, how do we know anything is accurate?

Wheels are not accurate, because they can easily wobble side to side, and bounce up and down, especially on cross country courses. Tracks are not good for calibration because many tracks are not accurate, and also they have curves.

A proper calibration course would be a steel tape measured course on at least a 1/2 mile straight, then gone over at least 2 times in each direction with a bicycle and Jones Counter, or a wheel but again, wheels are not accurate.

9 years ago 10/09/2014 8:54pm EDT

re: J.R.

J.R. wrote:
The game of CLUE wrote:
You can be amused all you want Mr. Hubbard, but we've used our wheel many times and backed it up on the track for verification of it's accuracy.
The argument will then be how do you know the track is accurate?...and on and on and on. Well, how do we know anything is accurate?
Wheels are not accurate, because they can easily wobble side to side, and bounce up and down, especially on cross country courses. Tracks are not good for calibration because many tracks are not accurate, and also they have curves.
A proper calibration course would be a steel tape measured course on at least a 1/2 mile straight, then gone over at least 2 times in each direction with a bicycle and Jones Counter, or a wheel but again, wheels are not accurate.

Sorry, you are incorrect. While in high school, we had a wheel and the point that you are making was proven false by our physics department...but you will disagree as this is LetsRun. Ours WAS calibrated accurately and there was no side to side wobble. Yes, some have wobble, but only the ones that wobble:) If the bearings are good and not worn past their life span, all is good.

Your bouncing up and down is the only real truth to your post. If the course doesn't have LOTS of dips, then it doesn't matter and obviously, there is no bouncing.

In addition, if you know anything at all about surveying, I do, you'd know that MOST tracks are very accurate. They are laid out using this new thing called MATH. Honestly, it really works. We also have transits. They help too:)

Guess how I know? I'm 33 and a land surveyor. I've actually done at least a dozen tracks in my days. All were accurately laid out and believe it or not, we didn't just draw an arc off the long points hoping that it would look good. Again, think MATH.

9 years ago 10/09/2014 9:17pm EDT

re: J.R.

MIS on a dry day is track on grass Nearly flat, wide turns (except for the semi-hairpin at 2 miles) that don't slow you down, plus the adrenaline of running against the state's best (including studs you may have only heard about) to end your season.

It is more susceptible than most other courses (e.g. Portage) to wet weather making it slower. MIS lays sand over the car race track just before a half-mile; wet sand clumps in spikes and makes feet heavy. The flat and low-lying racetrack infield (where runners cover the last 1/4 mile) can be spongy and especially hard when runners are most-spent and try to finish with one last flourish.

Maybe someone can help me recalling the fastest boys' times on this course after Dathan's 14:10. As I recall, Dustin Voss of Saline ran the last sub-15 there, although it may have been Maverick Darling of Ovid Else. Dathan's ex-Rockford teammate (and older by two years) Jason Hartmann did it. Tim Moore, Tim Ross, Landon Peacock and a couple others may have been close, but I don't think they got there.

9 years ago 10/10/2014 7:09am EDT

re: GR Runner

J.R. is trying to sound intelligent, but he's wrong.

As already mentioned by more than one poster, then how do we know what's accurate? If the wheel is calibrated and the person(s) goes point to point, it's as accurate as it needs to be.

He's over thinking, again, to sound intelligent and be different.

Scotth is wrong as well, but truly believes he's right.

Yes Scotth, wheels can be off, but they can also be accurate.

Also, I agree that he is a great finish line announcer and I'll be seeing him in 9 days at the Free Press Marathon, assuming that he's still doing it. I'll be easy to spot Scotth, as I'll be the one running with a wheel, LOL!

9 years ago 10/10/2014 8:46am EDT

re: Pogo Stick

A pogo stick is not accurate either.

9 years ago 10/10/2014 11:27am EDT

re: J.R.

J.R. Neither is your peabrain. Ever break 3 hours?

9 years ago 10/10/2014 12:44pm EDT

re: J.R.

9 years ago 11/05/2014 10:44am EST

re: Portage Runner

Portage Runner wrote:
I admit I had way more left in me than I should have. The problem was the race was insanely crowded where I was. It was really tough to pass people, and when you got stuck behind a slow pack, there wasn't much you could do till you got to an opening. That made my first mile a lot slower than it normally is.
"A full 5k course should be wheeled at 5005m taking all the tangents to get the shortest route possible."
This is not something I've heard before, and I'm not sure why this would be what defines a "full course". Gps watches are never completely accurate. I don't see why you assume my watch should read it to be exactly 5k. Sometimes it's slightly more than what i ran, and sometimes it's less.
_______
I also ran at Jackson, and at MSU. None of the courses struck me as short, and I check the distance on my gps watch after each race. (I take it with a grain of salt though. Often when you check gps watches with others it's not uncommon for distances to be different).
The MSU course is incredibly fun to run, and I don't know anyone who can claim that's not their favorite course. Short cut grass and nothing but a few rolling hills. I don't think times are fast because the course is short. I think times are fast because the course is easy to run and enjoyable.

Don't listen to that douche fu**. He clearly doesn't understand that 5k stands for 5000m. Dumba**.

9 years ago 11/05/2014 1:32pm EST

re: GR Runner

GR Runner wrote:
MIS on a dry day is track on grass Nearly flat, wide turns (except for the semi-hairpin at 2 miles) that don't slow you down, plus the adrenaline of running against the state's best (including studs you may have only heard about) to end your season.
It is more susceptible than most other courses (e.g. Portage) to wet weather making it slower. MIS lays sand over the car race track just before a half-mile; wet sand clumps in spikes and makes feet heavy. The flat and low-lying racetrack infield (where runners cover the last 1/4 mile) can be spongy and especially hard when runners are most-spent and try to finish with one last flourish.
Maybe someone can help me recalling the fastest boys' times on this course after Dathan's 14:10. As I recall, Dustin Voss of Saline ran the last sub-15 there, although it may have been Maverick Darling of Ovid Else. Dathan's ex-Rockford teammate (and older by two years) Jason Hartmann did it. Tim Moore, Tim Ross, Landon Peacock and a couple others may have been close, but I don't think they got there.

You are right, not a lot of sub-15's on the course. Then again, how fast a course is is better measured by more than just the winners of the races: plenty of sub-15:30's there over the years.

Darling was the last to run sub-15 at MIS.

Here's a list of the sub-15:15 races since 1996:

14:10.4 Dathan Ritzenhein 2000

14:51 Jason Hartman 1998

14:52.5 Grant Fisher 2014

14:52.8 Maverick Darling 2007

14:54.45 Dustin Voss 2003

15:02.5 Kurtis Marlowe 2000

15:03.6 Tim Ross 2001

15:04.2 Connor Mora 2012

15:05.1 Nick Raymond 2012

15:05.3 Chris Toloff 2000

15:05.4 Dathan Ritzenhein 1999

15:06.1 Tim Moore 2000

15:07.2 Frank Tinney 2003

15:07.3 Brian Kettle 2012

15:09.4 T.J. Carey 2012

15:09.45 Justin Switzer 2003

15:09.5 Landon Peacock 2005

15:09.8 Tanner Hinkle 2012

15:10.6 Addis Habtewold 2007

15:11 Dathan Ritzenhein 1998

15:11.3 Tim Moore 2001

15:12.0 Jake Flynn 1998

15:12.95 Luke Walker 2003

15:13.7 Grant Fisher 2013

15:13.9 Scott Albaugh 2010

15:14.3 Neal Naughton 2003

15:14.8 Nathan Burnand 2012

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Grant Fisher- 14:43 at Portage

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