Comparing Jager's AR to Lagat's flat 3000 isn't the same comparing Coburn's AR to Rowbury's 3000. The women's event is much less demanding since barriers are 6" lower. There is no hurdling in the women's event, they barely step over them.
The women are shorter and don't have as much power so it is appropriate for their hurdles to be lower. That said, the record is soft because the best middle distance runners don't run steeple.
get used to it. wrote:
The women are shorter and don't have as much power so it is appropriate for their hurdles to be lower. That said, the record is soft because the best middle distance runners don't run steeple.
Don't think the OP thought that one through yet. Give him some time.
Cultural wars wrote:
get used to it. wrote:The women are shorter and don't have as much power so it is appropriate for their hurdles to be lower. That said, the record is soft because the best middle distance runners don't run steeple.
Don't think the OP thought that one through yet. Give him some time.
The average man is around 8% taller than the average woman (varying somewhat by country). The steeple height is 20% higher for the men.
Softest record out there!
Apples and Oranges wrote:
Comparing Jager's AR to Lagat's flat 3000 isn't the same comparing Coburn's AR to Rowbury's 3000. The women's event is much less demanding since barriers are 6" lower. There is no hurdling in the women's event, they barely step over them.
Yes it's less demanding. We had the impression you did. But when we did the math and saw the 7.5-7.8% difference for most of the records, it was worth mentioning.
To be honest, if you want my more nuanced analysis, I'd say it is actually a little soft because the women's 3000 best time is soft.
We ignored the Chinese times but maybe we shouldn't have.
The men's 3000 WR of 7:20 is probably the best one on the books. It equates very favorably to 5000 and 100000.
The fastest non chinese 3000 of 8:16.60 is a bit soft. The women's 5000 WR of 14:11 equates to 8:10.72 for 3000 according to JK.
If you say 8:10.72 is what the flat 3000 record should be, then the steeple marks should be way faster. The 8:58 steeple WR is 9.8% off of the 8:10.72 mark.
Coburn's mark is off 9.0% from Slaney's 8:25.
So given all of that, it could be argued that Coburn's mark is roughly soft by 5-6 seconds or so. When compared to Slaney's marks, it's very soft.
Maybe the 8:06 mark by the Chinese isn't as crazy as people think!!!
-Rojo
PS. We also asked JK to convert Huddle's 14:44.76 AR to 3000. He says it's equivalent to 8:29.40.
There are short and tall men and women doing the steeple. The barriers should be the same height.
The main problem with the analogy is that your math is wrong.
8:58 is 8.5% slower than 8:16.
As to the point about the barriers being lower, we could compare to some other disciplines.
Women's 400hurdles (competed since 1984)
52.34 is 10% more than 47.60
Men's 400hurdles
46.78 is 8.3% more than 43.18
The 400 hurdles has been around longer, but the gap persists.
12.21 is 15% slower than 10.61 (since 1972)
11.63 (prorated 12.80) is 21% slower than 9.58
Note that for the men's and women's WRs to line up here, the 100m wr would have to be 10.1. I think it's safe here to say that women have less trouble with their hurdle height than men do with theirs.
but if a guy stops and takes pictures along the way and still breaks the record by 42 minutes in the Hardrock, isn't that indicactive of a soft record?
Re: steeple height, a 3" difference might level the field; 6" does seem like a lot.
Reporter: Emma, that was an okay race, but not really that good. We've concluded its pretty 'soft'
Emma: thanks for joining in the celebration. meh
Reporter: its our journalistic duty to point these things out.
Brian Diemer 5'9", Henry Marsh 5'10". Kipruto (7:53.64) The barrier heights should be the same. Zaripova 5'9" Galkina- 5'8" Coburn 5'8". Oly Silver medalist-Habiba Ghribi 5' 9"
Overall women are a few inches shorter but 30" is way to low. Not every discipline is meant to be equal for everyone. If you are a little taller and it is easier for you to clear a 36" barrier then so be it. If 9:11 and 8:59 were the AR/WR for women over 36" barriers then using percentages between 3K flat and steeple would make sense, but as it stands steeple times have a long way to go.
Kipruto 5'9"
If it's so soft where are the other women to challenge the record? There are a lot of talented American 400m hurdlers, and a deep pool of distance specialists. None of them want to take a shot at the steeplechase. It's hard to believe Shannon Rowbury (for example) wouldn't run steeplechase if she thought she could grab an American record and be number two or three in the world with a chance for an Olympic podium. Our old record holder JBS is the exception that proves the rule since she's within a tenth of second of taking down a 1500 record that's not considered "soft" by many people (except Ventolin).
SKATE wrote:
Brian Diemer 5'9", Henry Marsh 5'10". Kipruto (7:53.64) The barrier heights should be the same. Zaripova 5'9" Galkina- 5'8" Coburn 5'8". Oly Silver medalist-Habiba Ghribi 5' 9"
Overall women are a few inches shorter but 30" is way to low. Not every discipline is meant to be equal for everyone. If you are a little taller and it is easier for you to clear a 36" barrier then so be it. If 9:11 and 8:59 were the AR/WR for women over 36" barriers then using percentages between 3K flat and steeple would make sense, but as it stands steeple times have a long way to go.
In the WNBA the basketballs are smaller but the rims are not proportionately smaller as well. Why are they not?
or a dominating athlete.
Or maybe the breaks allowed him some recovery time which helped is race later on. Just things an average person would think about. I think I read at times he has stayed at aid stations until the next people showed up so he would have someone to run with.
Is there a calculator that you are using? Why not use something official like the IAAF tables.
get used to it. wrote:
or a dominating athlete.
Or maybe the breaks allowed him some recovery time which helped is race later on. Just things an average person would think about. I think I read at times he has stayed at aid stations until the next people showed up so he would have someone to run with.
So he's like the best athlete ever? Are ultra runners gods among mortal men and women? Please enlighten us.
On the other hand, the women get less distance pushing off a 30" barrier at the water pit, which puts them deeper in the pit every water jump.
SKATE wrote:
Brian Diemer 5'9", Henry Marsh 5'10". Kipruto (7:53.64) The barrier heights should be the same. Zaripova 5'9" Galkina- 5'8" Coburn 5'8". Oly Silver medalist-Habiba Ghribi 5' 9"
Overall women are a few inches shorter but 30" is way to low. Not every discipline is meant to be equal for everyone. If you are a little taller and it is easier for you to clear a 36" barrier then so be it. If 9:11 and 8:59 were the AR/WR for women over 36" barriers then using percentages between 3K flat and steeple would make sense, but as it stands steeple times have a long way to go.
It's not just height. Men have considerably more power than women, which impacts their ability to jump. Hence the difference between men and women in the high jump.
Hurdle height is a red herring...
The so-called AR may be soft and Coburn might knock it down a few seconds in a dream race.
Issue is the number of competitors in this country as compared to 3200 or even 1500.
Steeplechase requires a significant investment in props, too much for the typical urban or rural high school.
Connecticut runs a steeple championship for girls at the end of the season, most runners probably never tried the event.
Too bad, it could provide a nice entry point for a college scholarship for women...
To develop could chasers, place to start may be cross country...add a barrier or two to the bigger events....could use a water jump on the NXN championship speedway too.
Takes time, but look at the progress in the last 20 or even 10 years