Serious Doubles Question. Too Much Contradiction (Summer of Malmo)

GokuIsBack wrote:

Is it really better to do say, 3 miles in the AM and 5 in the PM, than it is to do just 8 in the PM?

Yes

GokuIsBack wrote:

I get that it's all about recovery and being able to do the runs faster when doubling and whatnot. But for 5k/8k/10k type training, are you really even getting much benefit out of a sole 3 mile and sole 5 mile run?

Yes

I say add doubles in when you can maintain 70 miles a week. So for 70 miles a week you'd do it in 7 runs and then when you are ready to increase jump to 85-90 and increase the length/number of the doubles until you are over 100, adding in doubles, but not changing the other runs at first. Typically someone utilizing doubles for the first time will have something like six 4-5 mile runs and 70 mpw in their 7 other runs.

If you just do a bunch of short runs you'll find yourself in worse shape in the fall than if you'd just done 50-60 in singles. The purpose of running 8 as opposed to 5 and 3 would be to increase your endurance and make the race distance something you could do waking up hung over after 2 hours of sleep as an easy run (not that I recommend trying that).

As a marathoner, I get 40-48 in my 6 short runs and 90-100 in my 7 longer runs each week for example. Averaging 17 miles per run would be just too much for me, but I could run a 17 or 2 a week (long run over 17) and some other runs of 10-13. If I wanted to do a workout, I'd be doing like 12 x mile if I needed to get in 17, too much unless it was done at marathon/half pace, in which case I'd be better off running fast for a longer distance with fewer repeats. Once you get really high in mileage, doubles make sense.

Hope this helps.

If you don't run more doing doubles than you would with singles then you are wasting your training time.

(_*Yibp%RS* wrote:

If you don't run more doing doubles than you would with singles then you are wasting your training time.

But think of how many showers he's taking!

For me I don't add doubles unless I'm really pumping up the miles. That means once I'm getting above 8-10 miles per day. I just have a hard time justifying the trouble to "run" 3 miles.

It is easier to establish the habit of doubles by just getting into doing them right away when mileage is low.

Since you said you are 5K-10K you certainly need to make sure you have some longer single runs. The mileage at which you should start doubles really depends on where your focus is. Mid-distance do doubles on lower mileage, you don't need to get as much in a single run. 5K-marathon, you need the training benefit of longer runs, so don't sacrifice say a 10 mile single run for the sake of doubling.

SMJO wrote:

It is easier to establish the habit of doubles by just getting into doing them right away when mileage is low.

As they say.... THIS.

(_*Yibp%RS* wrote:

If you don't run more doing doubles than you would with singles then you are wasting your training time.

The flip side of being able to run more mileage in doubles is that you can run the same mileage with greater recovery/less accumulated stress. Though I don't know why you wouldn't just run more mileage.

Doubles also train your body to recover quicker.

why not run more? wrote:

The flip side of being able to run more mileage in doubles is that you can run the same mileage with greater recovery/less accumulated stress. Though I don't know why you wouldn't just run more mileage.

This is incorrect. It's easier to recover with singles. However, there is an inflection point where the length of time on your feet starts to wear on you. My personal experience, that point is at about 12-13 miles. Obviously this is all dependent upon your fitness history. If you are not a very fit athlete 12 or 13 miles is going to be hell for you. Heck, 8 miles might be hell for you.

A twenty mile run puts more strain on the body than two ten milers. But the twenty mile single is easier to recover from than the two ten milers.

Think about doubles versus singles as a playground metaphor. If you push the merry-go-round once every revolution it's a harder push. If you push it every half revolution, it's easier to push and you can get the wheel going faster.

You are not running doubles to "add more mileage". You are not running doubles for "recovery". You are running doubles to put two stresses on the body in one day. That seems to be the sweet spot that has been tested by hundreds of thousands of competitive athletes for six or seven decades now.

Back in the day, if I was feeling fatigued, I'd have no problem with skipping the morning run and running a 15-20 miler that evening instead. It would be enough to rejuvenate me. The next morning I'd get right back on the horse and run an 8-10 miler and feel just great.

But for most people just starting out you need to start small and get into a routine. The mileage doesn't matter. As you get used to it you'll run your mornings at whatever distance and whatever pace is right for you. How do you know what that is? Listen to your body. Test it. Listen and adjust. This is not rocket surgery or brain science ;-)

I think people have the impression doubles help recovery because a runner often feels better on the second run of the day.

They put that down to the morning "recovery" run but it's probably more the fact that the body is in a state of partial warm-up at all times and there is more natural painkillers/endorphins making everything feel better.

More often than not a few forced days off during a double routine brings on all sorts of bodily shut down where everything seems to hurt.

Thanks for all the awesome feedback guys!

Haha but now I'm sure you see what I mean with the contradictions. I've gotten a number of different responses that all seem to have an idea of what they're talking about.

For some background, I'm a sophomore in college, never really trained even half seriously until this previous winter and I peaked at 60 mpw. Averaged about 50mpw. I'm at about 55-60mpw currently. I want to at least get to 80 mpw this summer.

What I'm worried about;

I plan to keep my 7-9 mile easy runs regardless, so I can maintain and build some endurance.

Now this part is for MALMO. If I start to run doubles, say 3 miles in the mornings 5 days a week, that's 15 miles. That would be an extra 15 miles on top of my current 55-60 mpw I'm running right now. I don't want to run too much to early and get injured.

Here is a very good thread about doubling. Read it and make up your mind.

100 mpw in singles or doubles. Which is better?

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=3965743

malmo wrote:

This is incorrect. It's easier to recover with singles.

Lots of very experienced runners disagree with you on this. I have years and years of my own logs showing it's not true for me.

malmo wrote:

Listen to your body. Test it. Listen and adjust. This is not rocket surgery or brain science ;-)

Amen.

For what it's worth, there's very little research on the effect of doubles. I absolutely agree that 70 years of experience teach us that doubles are the way to go, but when it comes to reasons for it, athletes and coaches have their own theories that seem to gel with their personal experiences.

We do know that a short aerobic stimulus causes a release of HGH, so running twice a day might be a way of maximizing the production of HGH, which would be expected to aid recovery. Others hypothesize that the real value of doubles is in keeping body fat low. We tend to avoid food for a few hours before a run, and exercise acts as an appetite suppressant after the run is over. Thus, running doubles can make getting enough macronutrients almost a challenge.

What about doing 3 miles in the AM and 8 in the PM?

GokuIsBack wrote:

...

Is it really better to do say, 3 miles in the AM and 5 in the PM, than it is to do just 8 in the PM?

...

There is also a school of thought that singles are better during the initial months of training during the base phase when you are seeking to expand aerobic fitness. However, when you are seeking to recover and maintain aerobic fitness for races, then the doubles are suitable.

Although, I remember reading an article (maybe in Running Times) by Steve Magness that mentioned doubles can also improve and expand aerobic fitness as much as singles.

I think doubles make more sense when you have a lower mileage tempo run or race pace session in the morning. Then you can come back and do some additional mileage in the PM and to aid in the recovery.

If there is a time constraint, then doubles would be preferable over a single run less than 45 minutes.

rekrunner wrote:

What about doing 3 miles in the AM and 8 in the PM?

GokuIsBack wrote:

...

Is it really better to do say, 3 miles in the AM and 5 in the PM, than it is to do just 8 in the PM?

...

I'm not about to go from 60 to 80 miles a week all at once...

GokuIsBack wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

What about doing 3 miles in the AM and 8 in the PM?

I'm not about to go from 60 to 80 miles a week all at once...

Why don't you just add doubles slowly enough so your mpw goes from 60-80 in a sensible way? You are really over thinking it.

i'm the opposite. base building/coming of a break = doubles every day. longer run in the am, and in the pm just get out the door and see what happens. just get on my feet doing relaxed, easy running as much as possible/i can tolerate without getting hurt or too fatigued. specific prep phase = doubles only on workout days. on recovery days, i'll get ~1h easy in the am, but am usually so effing beat from the previous day's workout that even an easy 20-30min in the pm seems counterproductive. maybe an evening walk or some stretching, but i'd rather get off my feet, relax, and heal up so i can get after it again the next day. the training to improve my ability to race well is done on the hard days now, not on some 3-4 mile shuffle @ 8min pace (which i would happily do during base building).

slopenguinrunner wrote:

There is also a school of thought that singles are better during the initial months of training during the base phase when you are seeking to expand aerobic fitness. However, when you are seeking to recover and maintain aerobic fitness for races, then the doubles are suitable.