What exactly is the gray area?

Anything that WADA decides it needs to be. The rules can change at any time to cover the unexpected.

4.3.1 A substance or method shall be considered for inclusion on the Prohibited List if WADA determines that the substance or method meets any two of the following three criteria

4.3.1.1

Medical or other scientific evidence, pharmacological effect or experience that the substance or method, alone or in combination with other substances or methods, has the potential to enhance or enhances sport performance;

4.3.1.2

Medical or other scientific evidence, pharmacological effect or experience that the Use of the substance or method represents an actual or potential health risk to the Athlete;

4.3.1.3

WADA's determination that the Use of the substance or method violates the spirit of sport described in the Introduction to the Code.

SOURCE:

http://www.wada-ama.org/Documents/World_Anti-Doping_Program/WADP-The-Code/WADA_Anti-Doping_CODE_2009_EN.pdf

Read more:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=5669127&page=36#ixzz33cqc1xTq

This is a good discussion topic.

You got it with things like thyroid meds, TUEs, and xenon gas.

Include with that would be things like testosterone supplement for masters athletes. They might be able to justify it for medical reasons but it has a clear enhancing effect. Is that ethical?

Asthma meds have not been shown to enhance performance: they prevent asthma attacks.

The WADA keys are "potential" to enhance, and "violates" in WADA's opinion the spirit of sport. Very murky legalize, somewhat open-ended.

I was going to start a thread asking the same thing. Glad you did first.

WADA makes the decisions, Dave. Gray is something--drug, techniques, or other--the violate the spirit of sport. The pure definition you want, Dave, is deemed to open ended.

WADA must have the ability to ban products and techniques as they learn about them. If took more than 13 years for WADA to find out about Xenon gas. Coaches and athletes using Xenon gas were far ahead of WADA.

*too open ended.

WADA you talking about? wrote:

WADA must have the ability to ban products and techniques as they learn about them. If took more than 13 years for WADA to find out about Xenon gas. Coaches and athletes using Xenon gas were far ahead of WADA.

NOP has a budget specifically set aside to try to find and use these products before they are banned. Completely against the spirit of the sport. I believe most fans dont give a damn whether what Rupp and Farrah are doing are official banned or not. But it leaves a bad taste in their mouth.

That may be the stupidest thing I have ever read on Letsrun. You have no insight as to how they allocate their budget, or anything whatsoever, with regard to the NOP. I don't know why people feel they need to devise information out of thin air when it comes to these guys; guys who at the end of the day are doing it right.

whatthewhat? wrote:

WADA you talking about? wrote:

WADA must have the ability to ban products and techniques as they learn about them. If took more than 13 years for WADA to find out about Xenon gas. Coaches and athletes using Xenon gas were far ahead of WADA.

NOP has a budget specifically set aside to try to find and use these products before they are banned. Completely against the spirit of the sport. I believe most fans dont give a damn whether what Rupp and Farrah are doing are official banned or not. But it leaves a bad taste in their mouth.

This doesn't even make sense because there is no finding and using things "before they are banned." That's inherently against the WADA rules. It is doping. It is illegal. The rules are very clear on that.

And I don't think NOP is doing that. Just pointing out that your post is not only completely unfounded but also completely nonsensical.

Takes guts wrote:

This is a good discussion topic.

You got it with things like thyroid meds, TUEs, and xenon gas.

Asthma meds have not been shown to enhance performance: they prevent asthma attacks.

For the love of God, THYROID MEDICINE DOES NOT IMPROVE PERFORMANCE.

PLEASE DO SOME RESEARCH BEFORE YOU VOICE YOUR STUPID OPINIONS. Jeez, you people make up theories out of nowhere with this 'NOP puts a lot of money into finding grey zone stuff' and make ignorant statements like 'Thyroid improves performance'. I will NEVER be able to take any of you ignoramuses seriously with your NOP hate if you don't understand BASIC HUMAN PHYSIOLOGY.

Here is a great website to LEARN YOUR CRAP.

To long to read? Here is the IMPORTANT STUFF

"One of the differences that thyroid replacement has from other forms of sports supplementation is that there is a clear peak point – normal thyroid function. Thyroid replacement in the absence of real deficiency could create a hyperthyroid state which would possibly hurt athletic performance as much a hypothyroidism. Overt hyperthyroidism causes anxiety, insomnia, weakness, perspiration, and mood swings – nothing an athlete wants. Even subtle hyperthyroidism could have negative effects for elite athletes. And the long-term consequences are significant. Thyroid replacement is a life-long commitment. And long-term it has side effects including cardiovascular and bone risks – excess thyroid is a definite “bone eater”, with bone resorption stimulated and osteoporosis being the result."

This website is put up BY DOCTORS, not WALL STREET JOURNALISTS. If Rupp is take thyroid medication when he doesn't have hypothyroidism than he has RIDICULOUS TALENT. Every single day would be wasted if he is overcooking his body with thyroid medicine.

Another (former) oregon duck wrote:

That may be the stupidest thing I have ever read on Letsrun. You have no insight as to how they allocate their budget, or anything whatsoever, with regard to the NOP. I don't know why people feel they need to devise information out of thin air when it comes to these guys; guys who at the end of the day are doing it right.

Really? That's the way you feel? So I guess his white paper, his own admission that had he used thyroid meds his career would have been different, the fact that a high number of his athletes are diagnosed with a super rare debilitating disease that is usually counter productive to being able to run, much less be a world class runner should not be considered? So I suppose all the people who accused Lance were fabricating information out of thin air up to hat moment he confessed on Oprah?

Speaking of the grey zone, you have straight crossed it and are firmly in the fanboy/girl zone. Lance had plenty of those.

coach comments nicely wrote:

For the love of God, THYROID MEDICINE DOES NOT IMPROVE PERFORMANCE.

I know. It only brings you back to normal. It just so happens that "normal", ever since thyroid meds have been used, is around 13:00 for Americans runners. But of course, no correlation whatsoever.

Ready my previous post. If Galen Rupp is taking thyroid, if any one of them are on thyroid for that matter, it is not boosting his performance AT ALL. Hypothyroidism is not 'super rare' much less 'debilitating'. 4-10% of people having hypothyroidism. Hypothyroid will not stop you from running fast, but it will make you extremely inefficient at doing it.

You bringing up Lance is a straw man fallacy.

Speaking of grey zone, you have straight crossed it and are firmly in the hateboy/girl zone. Lance had plenty of those.

coach comments nicely wrote:

Speaking of grey zone, you have straight crossed it and are firmly in the hateboy/girl zone. Lance had plenty of those.

And who was right?

whatthewhat? wrote:

coach comments nicely wrote:

For the love of God, THYROID MEDICINE DOES NOT IMPROVE PERFORMANCE.

I know. It only brings you back to normal. It just so happens that "normal", ever since thyroid meds have been used, is around 13:00 for Americans runners. But of course, no correlation whatsoever.

Your argument made no sense at all. You didn't even read the article, did you?

Taking thyroid medicine, if you are not hypothyroid can cause symptoms that are worse for you than hypothyroid. It will give you HYPERTHYROIDISM. Hyperthyroidism basically turns your system on GO and will (in lame man's terms) OVERCOOK just about every system in the body, including your BONE STRUCTURE and your SKELETAL MUSCLE. Basically, if Rupp is not actually hypothyroid, and he is taking thyroid medication, he is HURTING HIS PERFORMANCE.

Before you respond with another illegible comment, please take time to READ the article I posted.

whatthewhat? wrote:

coach comments nicely wrote:

Speaking of grey zone, you have straight crossed it and are firmly in the hateboy/girl zone. Lance had plenty of those.

And who was right?

Going right back to the straw man I see.

Bovine feces!Do a little research yourself buddy.You can even do a little search on this site and you will find countless journal articles which indicate that thyroid hormones can be performance enhancing. Some of these posts are now almost 10 years old.Taking thyroid hormones for a thyroid condition to get back to normal is one thing but they can be used and are performance enhancement. Take Rupp for instance, in the past he has had a TUE for both thyroid hormone and asthma meds. Go to any bodybuilding site on the web and you will find countless ads for thyroid hormones and asthma meds. Ask yourselves, what are the chances of a hypothyroid kid with asthma winning a silver medal in the Olympics? Damn, Salazar must be a frickin' genius to pull that off! Imagine what he could do with a healthy athlete!

coach comments nicely wrote:

4-10% of people having hypothyroidism.

No, in Western countries, "real" hypothyroidism occurs in 0.3–0.4% of the population. You might be confusing hypothyroidism with sub-clinical hypothyroidism, the later which occurs in 3-9% of the population. Also, sub-clinical hypothyroidism is more common people over 60 years of age, and is twice as likely to occur in women than it is in men.

"What is subclinical hypothyroidism?: Subclinical hypothyroidism refers to a state in which patients do not exhibit the symptoms of hypothyroidism. These patients also have a normal amount of circulating thyroid hormone. The only abnormality is an increased TSH on their blood work."

Lets do some comparisons here, sir.

I have provided an article with ACTUAL DOCTORS IN ENDOCRINOLOGY. You rebuttal by telling me to go to a BODYBUILDING WEBSITE? You don't provide any specific links, and you expect me to trust a meat head over ACTUAL DOCTORS. How does this make sense to you? I'm going to ask you, did you read the article I posted? Did you do some research on the website credentials? IT TRUMPS ANY ARTICLES ON LETSRUN and ANY BODYBUILDING WEBSITE.

You say:

"Taking thyroid hormones for a thyroid condition to get back to normal is one thing but they can be used and are performance enhancement."

Thyroid medication can only be performance enhancing IF YOU HAVE HYPOTHYROIDISM. Do you know what happens if you OVERSTIMULATE your thyroid? You would if you did some research yourself.

Now please provide ACTUAL links to these 'articles' please, and please don't post the Wall Street Journal one.

Rupp is a freaking kid from the state of Oregon, he has issues just like anyone else does.