Twitter rumour about Marathon EPO positive

a group of non elite Kenyans showed a 5% improvement over 3000m in a study on epo

if epo has no effect on top east africans but works for others

why did they suddenly blow the doors off everybody else at the time epo became widely available?

I've clearly met my match. I was just wondering because it seems to me that there is no reason to think she did EPO, it's not blatant, and it's not in anyone's face.

it's about time wrote:

Great reasoning, Einstein.

Radcliffe is the only obvious doper due to being the only one who does it so blatantly and in everyone's face.

In cycling, everyone got faster. Why wouldn't that happen in running too?Is it because the East Africans have more money, and modern training and medical facilities than the first world?

justsoyaknow wrote:

a group of non elite Kenyans showed a 5% improvement over 3000m in a study on epo

if epo has no effect on top east africans but works for others

why did they suddenly blow the doors off everybody else at the time epo became widely available?

It's also likely he started taking EPO after running two 2:08's, on the advice that that's what would make him run 2:04's.I would be an idiot to believe you on such flimsy evidence. The way you say it, you can just make things up as you go, regardless. Why would it be smart for me to believe that?Every year has rankings -- even the years before EPO. I gave you two examples of two runners who got busted when they were running slower. Are there any examples of marathon runners who got busted when they were running faster?

trollism wrote:

For one, he won this race and with it $50k. Why run faster?

For two, if he's a filthy cheater for this race, it's likely he's always been a filthy cheater. Have you any idea how difficult it is to actually test positive these days?

Do you actually believe that these lying cheats are telling the truth when they 'admit everything' about when they started conning people out of their money? You're an idiot if you believe them.

For proof that EPO works well for the marathon, all you have to do is look at the ranking lists each year. Ta da.

it's well documented the performance gains for women taking male hormones in track and field in the old iron curtain nations

4 seconds for 400

7 seconds for 1500

etc.

that's before epo is taken into consideration for 1500m gain

the Chinese did both and the results are there to see from 1500 to 10000

for the men my hunch is about 3-4 seconds gain at the very elite level 1500 based on known dopers like ramzi

10 sec for 5000

20 sec for 10000

marathon idk but I suspect microdosing is rife

in cycling the peloton got faster and a succession of dopers have dominated or won

the parallels are there with performance improvements on the track and dominance

by a few individuals

I agree it's well documented, and plenty examples exist, for sprinters, throwers, and mid-distances, and especially for women taking male hormones.

But nothing is documented (as far as I know) for anything over 10K.

As for cycling versus running, there are some parallels, but also significant differences.

no there isn't much evidence on elite marathoners and performance gain at that distance

the study on scottish and kenyan non elites showed 5% for 3000m

and then there's also the circumstancial evidence on dopers

like lombard who dropped 2 minutes over 10k

5% for the non elites is 3 seconds a lap

my hunch for the elites is about 1 second a lap

we know a lot less about track compared to cycling for obvious reasons

They can only find dopers if they test enough:

pic.twitter.com/crPtuHAckY

And the increase in tests only occurred in the last few years.

So any old performances are quite safe.

conconi on blood transfusions in the 80s

"Professor Conconi approached Donati regarding improving the performances of his athletes with estimations of the improvements at 3 to 5 seconds for 1,500 metre races, 15 to 20 seconds for 5,000 metre races and 30 to 40 seconds for 10,000 metre races"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francesco_Conconi

Fastest known doped (epo) marathon is 2.07.50.

Benoit Zwierzchiewski ran 2h 6 mins 36 secs at the Paris marathon.

some convicted or suspected european epo users have run in the 2-06s

theres a very familiar pattern of performance gain over 5000 and 10000m for blood dopers

usually 10-15 for 5000m and 20-30 for 100000m

http://www.iaaf.org/athletes/belgium/mohammed-mourhit-12678#progression

i don't know how that tranlates to marathon for the non east africans but i suspect a few minutes anyhow

no-one from east african running 2-03 or 2-04 been busted yet

plenty of world and olympic marathon titles been won by suspected blood dopers

some of the spanish blood dopers connected to fuentes seemed to gain about 4-5 minutes for the marathon in the 90s and 200s

dropping from 2-12 to about 2-07

not sure where that leaves canova and his theory on east african elites

no-one been busted yet below 2-05 anyhow

Francophone wrote:

Benoit Zwierzchiewski ran 2h 6 mins 36 secs at the Paris marathon.

That performance is still on the books as far as I know. Julio Rey's 2.07.37 (sorry the 2.07.50 was from memory) is the fastest time I am aware of that has been taken off the books.

blood dopers cleaned up at major marathons and championships in the 70s and 80s

they pretty much won everything going

so it's a puzzle when the east africans took off in the early 90s and there's a new blood boosting drug on the scene that somehow the trend wouldn't continue

especially given that many of the new people involved with these athletes had connections to the previous system of blood doping in the 80s

rekrunner wrote:

But maybe these are bad examples, and we should dwell on them -- is there any long distance male runner who was busted for any drugs, in any distance longer than 3000m, that performed significantly better when he was taking drugs?

Well, it can be a little tricky to track down exactly when an athlete started taking drugs but here are some athletes who either set PBs or got significantly faster on drugs or who set PBs in very close proximity to their doping positives. I've tried to indicate where it is less clear.

Cathal Lombard

Eddy Hellebuyck

Fernando Silva

Mohammad Mourhit (very likely his PBs were run while on drugs given the timing)

Hassan Hirt

Khalid Zoubaa??

Nordine Gezzar

justsoyaknow wrote:

if epo has no effect on top east africans but works for others

why did they suddenly blow the doors off everybody else at the time epo became widely available?

Because "they" weren't running before then. The depth increased 100-fold and so did the number of odd super-talents that were discovered.

you mean hermens 2 super talents...

i often wonder about that considering most of the goats of cycling and athletics have been dopers throughout the years

and their arrival coincided with the emergence of a new undetectable wonder drug on the distance scene

yet 2 'clean' guys were able to beat all comers throughout that time right from 1993 through 2009 when the blood passport came in

it's a complete reversal of doping history