A lot of old guys WERE pretty fast

This is not just for one race. Similar analyses have been performed for other mid-major races.

Here are my theories:

More races. When there is a Todd's Run and Doug's Run and Sue's Run every single weekend, the field for any given race is diluted.

More marathoners. Less focus on 10-30 km races.

More distractions, less sleep. When there were only four TV channels, it was a lot easier to train. You didn't have your Xboxes and Netflixs and Fruit Ninjas to distract people from going out and doing two 7 mile runs every goddamn day. Plus, everyone was getting more sleep. More sleep makes you run faster.

Better mental health treatment. Many of the individuals who would have been good runners back in the 80s are now getting treated for their depression and ADHD. So many of the idiosyncracies that would have let them spend 15% of their waking hours running on the roads alone have been eliminated.

More rigorous training and racing in college. Kids (student-athletes) graduating college nowadays are burned out and want to go get drunk and puff on trees. There's more competition for scholarships and team slots today compared to the past.

There were a lot more races in the 10-30 km range then than now. But marathons were deeper as well. Remember that 84 Americans went under 2:20 at Boston in 1984. Dilution has had some affect I think but we don't get anywhere close to 84 sub 2:20 guys in an entire year now.

From what I can tell there were more people running seriously 25 plus years ago than now. There seems to be a real watershed taking place when runners leave college. Many of them seem to think that if they don't get picked up by one of the post-collegiate groups they might as well quit or cut way back to "fun running." Without the groups most everyone was on their own and knew they had to deal with the business of staying alive. I think that kept more late bloomers and never bloomers in the sport. Some of the late bloomers bloomed pretty brightly.

yes, you are right. no more to say.

to theDAWG,

You're right, there were probably a lot us who were obsessed. Maybe training like fanatics was a way of dealing with mental illness? (I know that I'm still dealing with it!) But, the fact remains: we did run those times and today's runners aren't.

The original post was a message to all the youngsters who claim we exaggerate the times we ran in the past.

I'm not saying that today's runners aren't capable, just unwilling to put in the work. I was the slowest guy on our Track Club and I still ran 50-60 miles a week. (Everyone else were putting in 80-100. There were a ton of 31-33 min 10K runners, I struggled to run 36's. I was considered slow, but my times back then would win a lot of 10K's today.)

I'm fairly new to these message boards. You guys may have rehashed all this already. All I know is the disrespect I hear from the younger runners, putting down us old guys who are lucky to run within 2 min per mile of our old 10K PR'S.

As far as races being diluted these days because of the availability of Todd Runs, Doug Runs and Sue Runs, I can only say that there was no shortage of races in The Bay Area. On any given weekend there were probably 5-10 local races to chose from. From the North Bay (Marin, Napa, Santa Rosa) to the East Bay (Oakland, Hayward, Berkeley) to San Francisco to the Peninsula (San Mateo, Palo Alto) to the South Bay (San Jose) to Santa Cruz. All within an hour or two drive.

old guy 67 wrote:

to theDAWG,

You're right, there were probably a lot us who were obsessed. Maybe training like fanatics was a way of dealing with mental illness? (I know that I'm still dealing with it!)

What kind of mental illness are we talking about - melancholy, serious depression, bi-polar?

1. What was the entry fee like back then? I wouldn't be surprised if these races in California you were talking about cost 1/10 the price to enter in the 1970s and 1980s.

2. What was prize money like back then?

When a given 10 miler is $70-$100 people start thinking twice about it, especially young guys right out of college, without a lot of savings and probably with a good deal of debt (student loans). This is the major problem here, cost to enter and how much financially worse off young people are today than 30 years ago. Lastly you say runners had choices back then, but look at how many races there are to chose between today. There isn't a single weekend without a half marathon in California, most have 3-5. Which one is a runner to chose?

http://www.halfmarathons.net/race_calendar_california.html

Dilution is a real problem. I don't think the old timers understand fully just how many races there are today. Thats not including any race distance but half marathons. Multiply by 20 or so to get the number of 5ks in California.

Not sure about more race opportunities. Maybe just different ones? My hometown had a 10 miler... Long gone. And a 10k also gone. I live in a city of 60,000 now. There is a 5 miler in April and a half marathon in September thats it.

Umass 88 wrote:

Not sure about more race opportunities. Maybe just different ones? My hometown had a 10 miler... Long gone. And a 10k also gone. I live in a city of 60,000 now. There is a 5 miler in April and a half marathon in September thats it.

what city? I bet it also has 1-5 half marathons, if you use halfmarathons.net to find them.

Entry fees in the 70s were usally on the down side of $5 except for big events. Late in the decade they might have gotten to $10 or so at least in the DC area. Maybe by 1981 on the west coast they were a bit higher but I can't imagine they were much more.

The first race with prize money was the 1981 Cascade Run Off. The idea caught on pretty quickly but up until then there was no prize money. I'd bet heavily that ten mile had no prize money. Guys then could get pretty psyched about winning a portable TV.

What kind of mental illness are we talking about?

Answer: Depression!

It makes me depressed when people don't recognize sarcasm when they read it. But then again, I may not be recognizing your much more subtle sarcasm.

Also, someone talked about the cost of races these days possibly keeping away some of the faster, younger runners. I have to admit that's an angle I'd completely overlooked. I know the entry fee for the '79 San Francisco Marathon was $5.

Hard to believe but true, and it included a t-shirt, refreshments after the race and a race results booklet sent in the mail. (Even if it took 6 months to receive it!!!)

The race was put on by a local running club, The Pamakids (PA, MA & THE KIDS) Even if you factor in inflation, races were definitely more affordable 30 years ago.

Most races were put on by running clubs. The entry fee for a DSE race (Walt Stack & the Dolphin South End Club) was a buck. No t-shirt, but finisher ribbons & place ribbons for the top 3 or 5 (Can't recall) men & women.

Other clubs like Excelsior, Pamakids, The Aggies, West Valley Joggers & Striders all put on races for $3-$8, including T-shirts, refreshment sand race results.

Running shorts were $5 and shoes $25-$35.

Then Corporate Amerika got involved......

During that same time-frame, I ran 52:10 in a PA-TAC 10-mile championship race and came in about 20th. There were a handful of runners under 50. During those years, It was typical for me to feel rather insignificant as a runner.

Reading this drunk as F and im just like whattt the ff there is NO WAY THIS EVER HAPPEND EVER!

short courses, really short course.

A 50 minute 10 miler is equivalent to a 14:15 5000. There were about 150 D1 guys who ran faster than that. There may have been more mediocre performances back in the day, but there are a lot more FAST ones now.

The answer is drugs. Everyone's on drugs now, so they can't run the times that were run a few decades ago.

Entry fees are way too high now, and there aren't as many places to run. Tracks are locked up, dirt roads have been paved, and there are vehicles everywhere.

Anyone who has a nice convenient place to run is quite fortunate.

so, what are the reasons for the change?

1. cushiness everywhere: using an elevator instead of climbing the stairs, driving a car instead of walking/biking etc.

2. mentality change: there´s a lack of long term-effort and long term-discipline: why going to run in the heat/rain? why doing this for years etc.

3. keen competition of activities in a modern world: skate boards, fun sports, xboxes, computers, cinema, blablabla...

4. eating habits changed.

5. different goals: in the 80´s more runners tried to run a distance as fast as possible, nowadays most runners want to finish a distance (just to be a "marathoner" or an "ironman").

6. more working hours (school, job)? but i am not sure about that.

'80s, not 80's.

fake runner wrote:

so, what are the reasons for the change?

1. cushiness everywhere: using an elevator instead of climbing the stairs, driving a car instead of walking/biking etc.

2. mentality change: there´s a lack of long term-effort and long term-discipline: why going to run in the heat/rain? why doing this for years etc.

3. keen competition of activities in a modern world: skate boards, fun sports, xboxes, computers, cinema, blablabla...

4. eating habits changed.

5. different goals: in the 80´s more runners tried to run a distance as fast as possible, nowadays most runners want to finish a distance (just to be a "marathoner" or an "ironman").

6. more working hours (school, job)? but i am not sure about that.

ups, thanks, mistake.

Back in the old days there was no accurate way to measure the time so all these results are invalid. Results got slower once modern timing methods were introduced e.g stopwatches etc.