SENSATIONAL DISCOVERY: Runners from the Carribean found a way, how to outwit the physiology of the 400 m event!

I can't be bothered to run this data through a T test but from glancing over the figures I'm pretty certain there would no significant difference. Maybe someone with more time / motivation can do the test and confirm.

Oh, no...! You underestimate Caribbean coaches!

Average - group 1: 187,8 (SD 5,2), n=16

Average - group 2: 179,1 (SD 5,6), n=8

p=0.000996

Carribbean sport physiologist aka Sport physiologist aka Czech guy, the new Czech talent Pavel Maslak is also short (175cm), I hope you count him as a doper as well and expect his coach Dalibor Kupka to be in touch with these Carribean coaches.

(oh wait, Maslak is a white European, I forgot that in that case everything is always physiologically fine)

mako wrote:

Carribbean sport physiologist aka Sport physiologist aka Czech guy, the new Czech talent Pavel Maslak is also short (175cm), I hope you count him as a doper as well and expect his coach Dalibor Kupka to be in touch with these Carribean coaches.

(oh wait, Maslak is a white European, I forgot that in that case everything is always physiologically fine)

You can always find an exception to the rule, but in the 400 m, these exceptions are now too many, and too many come from the same geographical region.

Among Top 30 in the 400 m, you have only 4 guys shorter than 180 cm. That's a probability of 7.5:1. Now, since 2009, we have 3 medal winners smaller than 180 cm and 3 are 180 cm tall. You can't wonder that I smell something fishy here.

TOP 30 of all-time: 400 m height weight BMI

1.Michael Johnson (USA) 185 78 22,79

2.Butch Reynolds (USA) 193 84 22,55

3.Jeremy Wariner (USA) 183 70 20,9

4.Quincy Watts (USA) 190 88 24,38

5.LaShawn Merritt (USA) 188 82 23,2

6.Danny Everett (USA) 187 64 18,3

7.Steve Lewis (USA) 188 84 23,77

8.Kirani James (Granada)180 66 20,37

9.Angelo Taylor (USA) 188 84 23,77

10.Alvin Harrison (USA) 188 80 22,63

Jerome Young (USA) 181 79 24,11

12.Gary Kikaya (Kongo) 184 75 22,15

13.Derek Mills (USA) 175 72 23,51

14.R. Hernández (Kuba) 179 74 23,10

15.A. Maybank (USA) 188 81 22,92

16.Otis Harris (USA) 185 75 21,91

17.I. Egbunike (Nig.) 174 68 22,46

18.Samson Kitur (Keňa) 182 75 22,64

19.Ian Morris (Trin.) 175 65 21,22

20.A. Juantorena (Kuba) 190 84 23,27

21.Alonzo Babers (USA) 187 76 21,73

A. Pettigrew (USA)183 77 22,99

D. Williamson (USA)188 77 21,79

24.Andrew Valmon (USA) 185 78 22,79

T. Washington (USA)183 81,5 24,34

26. Derrick Brew (USA) 185 79 23,08

S. C. Parrela (Braz.) 194 77 20,46

28.Gabriel Tiacoh (CIV) 180 75 23,15

LaMont Smith (USA) 188 73 20,65

30.A. Cardenas (Mex.) 186 73 21,10

TOTAL: 184,73 76,48 22,40

BTW, I show it mainly as an illustration of what doping is capable of. I don't suppose that anybody with a brain would doubt that the whole Caribbean is doped to the heels.

Carribbean sport physiologist wrote:

BTW, I show it mainly as an illustration of what doping is capable of. I don't suppose that anybody with a brain would doubt that the whole Caribbean is doped to the heels.

A real sport physiologist would (at least try ) to check his facts. There is one big flaw in your data, you've got the height of Kirani James (Gold WC 2011, OG 2012) wrong. He is 191-192 cm not 180 cm which slants your analysis (big time).

You are trying to prove something, nice ok, but COME ON do you need to doctor the facts in order to promote your theory/agenda ???

BTW, I think that you've also got Lalonde Gordon's height (bronze OG 2012, 179 cm) wrong, actually I think that a lot of your data here are flat out wrong. Provided that they are on the same step:

(James: center, Gordon Right)

Oh sorry I forgot this one, here is the "180 cm" James (extreme right) next to the 180 cm Chicherova

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/08/09/article-0-1B33A4EB000005DC-67_634x384.jpg

All this dope talk is about as interesting as corn in Captain Yawn Bottoms' poop.

I would check the data - if they were accessible to me. The last time I was looking for body height on Kirani James, I got 180 cm/66 kg. In fact, if I remember well, I was googling his name several days ago and all I got was again only 180 cm/66 kg. Now I googled his name one more, and it is true that I again got 180 cm/66 kg from Sports-Reference.com, but other sources suddenly say 191 cm/80 kg. This must be a very, very recent addition.

Remember that all I can do is to collect the data from the internet. I can't be responsible for their inaccuracy. Be sure that I was trying to find the most accurate information and that I would prefer the highest values. I just posted this thread because the height means in the 400 m started to fall down in a very wild way. But sometimes the data differ so absurdly that I must look at photos and compare body height in more athletes. Otherwise I would have no chance to know, which of them are closer to the truth.

Correlation does not mean causation.

luv2run wrote:

Correlation does not mean causation.

It doesn't matter much, how the data are interpreted. The conclusion stays the same: Caribbean nations are very unlikely medal contenders in the 400 m. Both due to their small body size and their small population size. So either this distance is full of doping, or the international competition is an utter joke. I think that it is currently both. (Although it is true that doping in the 400 m is rather ineffective, in comparison with the 100 m or long distances).

I will have to call you out on this one. After googling his name , pretty much all the links that I get list him between 6'2 and 6'4, including his wikipedia page which has been listing him like this for one year (so, no this is not a very very recent addition).

Now, Wikipedia is not always accurate, for sure, and that would have prompted me to check for photos as you said:

"But sometimes the data differ so absurdly that I must look at photos and compare body height in more athletes"

Which obviously you did not, since you ridiculously undersize him on your listing.

You are entitled to your opinions, to promote your theories in whatever website or blog comments section you want, that's your right, but trying to do it by twisting the facts, doctoring, won't cut it.

"

If I have more varying values, then I am forced to compare photos and I can decide, which ones are more trustworthy. If I have only one value, comparing photos won't help me. Either I would have to exclude the value completely, or make something up.

In the case of Kirani James, I was looking for the data several times in the past, but everytime I got only 180/66. I don't remember if I did it recently, because during the last week I was completing all male events and I googled dozens of athletes. In any case, now I get one source for 180/66 and 191/80 in the rest. That's all I can say. BTW, the value on the English Wikipedia page was changed on 8th July 2013.

In any case, I am happy that I was wrong (or, respectively, that the internet sources were wrong). The data were extremely weird. They probably list their body height from basic school. But it doesn't change the fact that Caribbean 400 m runners are not much likely medal winners. To the contrary, it further strengthens my point.

excellent stats.

however a guy like santos ain't about to give back his medal because he's 10+ cm shorter than optimal.

Of course. But as you can see, it turned out that the physiological rules of the 400 m hadn't changed and my suspicion was correct (although not exactly in the way, how it originally looked): This distance benefits from very tall statures, because it depends on anaerobic capacity (anaerobic glycolysis) that increases with body size. A larger body size in running means a longer stride length.

You can always find some exceptions here and there, but these runners must inevitably have some other advantages that compensate for their height deficiency. If they were taller, their performance would be much better.

After I corrected the data in James and Gordon, the mean value in international medal winners since 2000 is now 185,9 cm, BMI 22,51 kg/m2. It is almost exactly the same like in the 400 m hurdles: 185,8 cm, BMI 22,44 kg/m2. The data of athletes are often inaccurate, but when you take a sufficiently large sample, the resulting mean is very, very similar.

Sensational Discovery?!

You're a crackpot. Just like Fermat.

roller wrote:

Sensational Discovery?!

You're a crackpot. Just like Fermat.

Actually, no sensational discovery, because someone infected the internet by incorrect data. The physiology of the event remains the same. Fortunately.

This is just wrong. Hieght and stride length are only losely correlated. If hieght mattered any of the 7's would be able to crush these puny 6' guys. Doesn't happen. Or to make it more blatant. Your champion sprinters are going to be 5'10-6'2 90% of the time. Just so happens that is where about 90% of the 81-35 year old male population stands height wise

Sport physiologist wrote:

A larger body size in running means a longer stride length.

This thread is quite old and as it is pointed the OP was very wrong

Here are the sprints P.B of the fastest 400m sprinters ever :

400m 200m 100m
Wayde van Niekerk 43"03 - 19"84 - 9"94
Michael Johnson 43"18 - 19"32 - 10"09*
Harry Lee Reynolds 43"29 - 20"46** - X
Jeremy Wariner 43"45 - 20"19** - X
Michael Norman 43"45 - 19"70 - 9"86
Steven Gardiner 43"48 - 19"75 - X
Quincy Watts 43"50 - 20"50** -X
Fred Kerley 43"64 - 19"76 - 9"84
LaShawn Merritt 43"65 - 19"70 - X
Isaac Makwala 43"72 - 19"77 - X
Mean 200m 19"90, Median 19"77

*19"32 200m means at least 9"90 100m potential (and I am being conservative)
**Reynolds, Wariner and Watts have underwhelming 200m PB since they rarely raced it, probably to avoid tough local competition. Watts 200m record was done at 17. These 3 guys were probably worth 19"80

The mean 200m P.B of the 10 fastest 400m-er ever is 19"90 (median 19"77) and the presence of 3 "slow" outliers proves that real figure should probably be lower.

We are at a point where half-milers cannot compete anymore in this race because very high basic speed is needed to run the mean 200m PB of the best quarter-milers ever. (In fact, there are quite few 200m specialists who can even run 19"9).

A famous coach said that the faster the (level of the ) 400m is, the more the "speedsters" (100/200m specialists) would be advantaged, because speed is less trainable than endurance or resistance.

Therefore at the highest level, a strong phosphagen system is the primary factor in 400m performance.